[mishovnbg]

Cascade, on Feb 27 2004, 01:06 PM, said:

These meta bids have many applications.

We have been playing meta-bids without this name for two or three years over our nebulous 1♦ in competition. Our one diamond is minor oriented guaranteeing at least one long minor. Precisely it is two or three suited unbalanced with no five-card major (some hands with six clubs and four diamonds are excluded). I am sure it can be adapted to other nebulous 1♦ and maybe even other systems.

1♦ (1♥/♠) Dbl = minor oriented negative double

1♦ (1♥) 2♣ = ♣+♠
1♦ (1♥) 2♦ = ♦+♠
1♦ (1♠) 2♣ = ♣+♥
1♦ (1♠) 2♦ = ♦+♥

All of these bids are non-forcing for us.

Wayne

Spoiler

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Wayne!

Spoiler

--------

Thanks for sharing your expirience with us! Yes, meta structure is usefull after any nebulous opening bid like strong 1♣/♦, waiting opening bids like 1♣ polish, 1♦ precision 2(1,0)+ cards...

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[mishovnbg]

inquiry, on Feb 27 2004, 05:06 PM, said:

Rado, on Feb 27 2004, 10:01 AM, said:

Hi Ben,
Pointing out that I have just "theoretical" view on META upto now, I think that after 4 level opening the things are dramatically different.
One of the basis when inventing META was to right side the possible NT contract, together with developing more agressive (DONT-like) suit overcalls.
When Opss open at level 1,2,3 we are still trying to locate our possible 3NT game.
When Opps open at level 4 or higher the NT as game is nearly out of question (yes I agree that sometimes 4NT is the only makable game, but life's not perfect :-) so the overall idea must be changed from standart META.
Regards
Rado

Hi Rado,

You have reached the same conclusion that I have. Meta is designed for getting in at a low level and trying to right side a 3NT contract. The use of doubles, especially at the three level, seems to follow along with the teaching of Marty Bergen with his thrump (3NT) doubles and other ideas after opening 3 level preempts.

So like you, I wonder if the bidding starts at 4♣ or higher if META should not be turned off.

Ben

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi friends!

Spoiler

------

Bidding in high level of competition is related to unavoidable guessing. Only way to bid in same situation is usage of multi meaning bids and pray your partner to recognize them. Is the meta overcalls applicable at 4+ level? The answer is yes, but willing to use them or not depend of modified list of priority of the wining contracts, include penalty double. Most of the experts prefer the take out double, but it is not clear against 21 century "variable preepmts" . Modified meta overcalls double will show any 1 suiter(include majors) or big balanced/1 suited hand suitable for 4NT, while other bids - 2(3) suiters, continuing DONT style of bidding. 4NT should be used for 1 suited overcall on next level. With balanced or penalty hand - pass and hope partner to reopen. It is not sure same style is better than simple normal bidding, despite whith its constructive oriented scheme give you more options to reach right own contract.

Spoiler

------

I was surprised while thinking about high level competition how perfectly meta structure fits for cue bid and jump bids. I didn't discover it early, because in my opinion complicate conventions for 1 of 1000 boards case is just losing time. You can play standard bids below cue bid and still use it. Example:

(4♠)-?
X,4NT,5♣,5♦,5♥: Any
5♠: 1 suiter
5NT: ♣+♦
6♣:♣+♥
6♦:♦+♥

Spoiler

------

Advantage of same application of the meta structure is showing directly 2 suiters, while for 1 suiters paradox bids and NT contract are available.

Spoiler

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[cwiggins]

Cascade, on Feb 27 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

We have been playing meta-bids without this name for two or three years over our nebulous 1♦ in competition.  Our one diamond is minor oriented guaranteeing at least one long minor.  Precisely it is two or three suited unbalanced with no five-card major (some hands with six clubs and four diamonds are excluded).  I am sure it can be adapted to other nebulous 1♦ and maybe even other systems.

1♦ (1♥/♠) Dbl = minor oriented negative double

1♦ (1♥) 2♣ = ♣+♠
1♦ (1♥) 2♦ = ♦+♠
1♦ (1♠) 2♣ = ♣+♥
1♦ (1♠) 2♦ = ♦+♥

All of these bids are non-forcing for us.

Wayne

What do your other bids mean after the nebulous diamond?

Presumably over 1♥ (assuming 11-15 HCP 1♦):
1♠ = 5+ F1? NF?
1NT = stopper, 8-10 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
2NT = stopper(s), 11-12 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
3NT = stopper(s), 13-16 HCP, not 4-cards in OM

But what about 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦, etc. ?

How do you show a "competitive" but NF club or diamond one suiter? Same hand but GF? One scheme would be to use suit bids one above the cue bid to be transfers.

What are your forcing bids with the same distribution as the Dbl, 2♣, 2♦ hands?

After 1♦ (1♥), with 5 spades and a 4-card minor, do you overcall 1♠? But over 1♦ (1♠), presumably 2m could be 54 either way?

Would the meanings be different if you were playing a "standard" Precision nebulous 1♦?

I guess my questions break down to:
1) How do you handle one-suited in the other suits, both GF and < GF.
2) How do you handle two-suited hands, both GF and < GF.
3) Balanced hands with and without stoppers and with 4 cards in OM.
4) How to handle 3-suiters. Per one of the other notes, 3-suited hands get shown as 2-suited and hope to live another day. Since 3-suited hands are rare, this may be good for matchpoints.

[inquiry]

My experience with META.

As noted elsewhere, I am beginning to think that META needs to be level specific. Perhaps over opening bids at the four level, double should be takeout, and new suit just show that suit. Rado and I discussed this above.

Another level where maybe META maybe should be off is the one level, as you can mimic the meta concept with raptor 1NT (where a 1NT overcall shows a minor and a major). Thus, playing meta... you might bid 2♣ over 1♦ with 4-2-2-5 distribution, but you can show the same hand with 1NT (promising ♣ and unknown major). So I am not sure if meta at the one level is needed (assuming you play raptor).

Having said that, there is no better way to sniff out a psychic opening bid that playing meta. So there is a lot still to say for meta at the one level. If you hold some great hand and they bid your suit. You double (planning perhaps to bid NT or cue-bid that suit on the next round) and your partner bid 1NT, showing a stopper he shouldn't have. This is unparrelled pscyhe exposure.

Scoring: IMP

---

West    North   East    South
Pass    Pass    1♥      Dbl     
1♠      Pass    Pass    2♥      
Pass    3♣      Pass    3N      
Pass    Pass    Pass    

Here is a meta auction misho and I had recently...

I suspected EAST 1♥ bid was light even before his pass on second round, but what I didn't know was if it was a full-blooded psyhce or just a hand like he held.

I doubled, secure in the knowledge partner would bid, and if he bids 1NT, well, then I would know. When the bidding came back to me, I have two choices, I jump to 2NT showing a great balanced hand, a 1NT bid (which would be weaker, but balanced). I choose 2♥, forcing. Misho's pass over 1♠ already denied ♥ stopper and fair values. He could have bid, for instance 2♣ or responsive dbl. So he can't have very much indeeded. Over my 2♥ if he was really broke, he would have now bid 2NT, so his 3♣ showed some smattering of values. In fact, his ♦QJ and long ♣ was just what I needed for a nice 3NT contract.

This hand was played at 17 tables. 3NT was bid at 10 tables including mine. At none of the other nine did my hand have to deal with a 1♥ opening bid. However, EAST DID open 1♥ at five tables (including mine), and Misho and I were the only pair to reach 3NT after such an opening bid. Was this a victory for META? I think so.

[inquiry]

cwiggins, on Mar 2 2004, 10:02 AM, said:

What do your other bids mean after the nebulous diamond?

Presumably over 1♥ (assuming 11-15 HCP 1♦):
1♠ = 5+ F1? NF?
1NT = stopper, 8-10 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
2NT = stopper(s), 11-12 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
3NT = stopper(s), 13-16 HCP, not 4-cards in OM

But what about 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦, etc. ?

How do you show a "competitive" but NF club or diamond one suiter? Same hand but GF? One scheme would be to use suit bids one above the cue bid to be transfers.

What are your forcing bids with the same distribution as the Dbl, 2♣, 2♦ hands?

After 1♦ (1♥), with 5 spades and a 4-card minor, do you overcall 1♠? But over 1♦ (1♠), presumably 2m could be 54 either way?

Would the meanings be different if you were playing a "standard" Precision nebulous 1♦?

I guess my questions break down to:
1) How do you handle one-suited in the other suits, both GF and < GF.
2) How do you handle two-suited hands, both GF and < GF.
3) Balanced hands with and without stoppers and with 4 cards in OM.
4) How to handle 3-suiters. Per one of the other notes, 3-suited hands get shown as 2-suited and hope to live another day. Since 3-suited hands are rare, this may be good for matchpoints.

The meta doubled, as misho points out, tends to deny a stopper. So if you have a "game force" or a "competitive hand" with a minor and no STOPPER, you double. If your partner lacks a stopper, clearly you are never playing 3NT.. and 5 of a minor is a long, long way off. And if opener has a monster minor one suiter and no stopper, don't forget the jump cue-bid to the three level.

Likewise, you can overcall 1NT with a stopper and a one suited minor hand. This can include a side suit singleton or void, all you are showing is a stopper in their suit. If your partner is weak, he will bid 2♣ (pass/correct it that is not their suit). He can invite with jump to 3 of a minor.. or he can force with 2NT and/or cue-bid. Warning, 1NT overcall doesn't have to be minor one suiter, just a stopper and not a major-minor two suiter.

Also from your questions, it looks like you might be applying META to opener's side... currently, we use meta as bids after the opponents open and it is our first bid in the auction.

Misho and I need to write up detailed notes with example hands on how we play this and post it on the web someplace I guess..... of course, my understanding of it changes (improves?) every few days so the posted document no doubt will be subject to frequent changes.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

cwiggins, on Mar 2 2004, 05:02 PM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 27 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

We have been playing meta-bids without this name for two or three years over our nebulous 1♦ in competition.  Our one diamond is minor oriented guaranteeing at least one long minor.  Precisely it is two or three suited unbalanced with no five-card major (some hands with six clubs and four diamonds are excluded).  I am sure it can be adapted to other nebulous 1♦ and maybe even other systems.

1♦ (1♥/♠) Dbl = minor oriented negative double

1♦ (1♥) 2♣ = ♣+♠
1♦ (1♥) 2♦ = ♦+♠
1♦ (1♠) 2♣ = ♣+♥
1♦ (1♠) 2♦ = ♦+♥

All of these bids are non-forcing for us.

Wayne

What do your other bids mean after the nebulous diamond?

Presumably over 1♥ (assuming 11-15 HCP 1♦):
1♠ = 5+ F1? NF?
1NT = stopper, 8-10 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
2NT = stopper(s), 11-12 HCP, not 4-cards in OM
3NT = stopper(s), 13-16 HCP, not 4-cards in OM

But what about 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦, etc. ?

How do you show a "competitive" but NF club or diamond one suiter? Same hand but GF? One scheme would be to use suit bids one above the cue bid to be transfers.

What are your forcing bids with the same distribution as the Dbl, 2♣, 2♦ hands?

After 1♦ (1♥), with 5 spades and a 4-card minor, do you overcall 1♠? But over 1♦ (1♠), presumably 2m could be 54 either way?

Would the meanings be different if you were playing a "standard" Precision nebulous 1♦?

I guess my questions break down to:
1) How do you handle one-suited in the other suits, both GF and < GF.
2) How do you handle two-suited hands, both GF and < GF.
3) Balanced hands with and without stoppers and with 4 cards in OM.
4) How to handle 3-suiters. Per one of the other notes, 3-suited hands get shown as 2-suited and hope to live another day. Since 3-suited hands are rare, this may be good for matchpoints.

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi cwiggins!

Spoiler

------

I have some expirience while playing similar scheme in NTC system at tournaments with my partner Marian. In 24 board MP tournaments we had average 3 boards wins, because played right sided contracts. I will give you an example:
1♦{weak NT or natural} - (1♠) - ?

X: 8+HCP without other available bid, defensive hand
1NT: nat
2♣: inv+, 5+♥ or gf 4+♥
2♦: inv-, 4+♥, passable (weak take out double)
2♥: inv+, (5)6+♣, deny 4 ♥
2♠: inv+, (5)6+♦, deny 4 ♥
2NT: inv+, 4+♥-4+♦, unbalanced
3♣/3♥: inv, 6+♣/♥
3♦: inv-, (5)6+♦, deny 4♥
3♠: ask for stopper ♠ with good (5)6+♣/♦
3NT: stopper ♠ with good (5)6+♣/♦, to play

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------------------

Misho