[cherdano]

Hannie, on Jun 8 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

I think that both 4C and 5C are reasonable. It depends on how much slam interest you think 4C shows. I would bid 5C without the club king, so I think that I will bid 4C followed by 5C over whatever cuebid partner makes.

I am not sure 4C-then-5C is obviously stronger than a direct 5C. 5C could also be understood as a picture jump, showing mostly good trumps and no controls in the red suits. 4C could also be a weaker hand that would pass 4S (catering for partner 6133 jump shift).
So it's certainly a matter of agreement , and I wouldn't venture a guess which is the more standard one.

Arend

[mikestar]

awm, on Jun 8 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

AKQxxxx
Ax
x
Axx

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system.

If partner would jump shift with that, he deserves to be hanged. To me, this 9 trick hand is a 2♣ opener; but if not, then jump to 4♠ (or 3NT if this shows a hand with solid spades in your methods.)

Please let's don't invent bids on three card suits when it isn't necessary. Opposite a partner who does this regularly, I'm inclined to give up on slam--if the three card clubs suit is possible, your club length makes it more likely that he has only three than if you were shorter.

[Echognome]

awm, on Jun 8 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

AKQxxxx
Ax
x
Axx

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

I was playing a natural system, much like what you play with Elianna. Partner MIGHT be making up a bid just to force me. But I don't see why we are assuming the worst.

In fact, I had an entirely different problem at the table. My partner rebid 3NT which produced an instand pass from me. However, he had a totally clear 3♣ bid, so I was just postulating what I would do over that.

[jchiu]

Whenever partner jump shifts into 3♣, I always consider the very valid possibility that he only has three clubs. Since 1M-1N; 4M shows about a 4M preempt with a side ace, partner must manufacture a bid with any hand too good to simply rebid 3♠. Adam produces a very typical example of such a hand (AKQxxxx Ax x Axx), but my experience has shown that the artificial 3♣ comes from a less pure 20-count with seven spades. I therefore require responder to have 5♣ for the direct raise to 4♣, which is my preferred action. As Josh has already mentioned, if partner continues with 4♠, I pass quickly.

Some expert pairs (e.g. Jim Krekorian - John Diamond) have defined 1M-1N!; 3♣ as an artificial bid showing a game forcing hand. This game forcing hand can be a traditional jump shift, or a game-forcing single-suiter. Then, 3♦ asks which and the opener's responses explain further. I'm not entirely sure, but I think there is insufficient room for showing one of these hands (the jump shift into clubs, possibly). If this is indeed the case, I suspect that their system compensates by defining the opening bid with 5♣ and 5♠ rigorously.

[awm]

The problem is that there is no clear bid in a natural system with a strong single-suited hand. Basically your options are:

(1) Open 2♣, which greatly reduces any defensive requirements for the bid, and means you often will open 2♣ on fairly non-descript 18-19 hcp hands including a 6-card suit.

(2) Open 1M and rebid 4M, meaning that you bid the same way with 11-14 points and an eight card suit (assuming no namyats) and with 18-19 with a six card suit.

(3) Open 1M and rebid 3m, which means you could be bidding 3m on a 3-card suit or even occasionally a 2-card suit (especially since rebidding 3♥ on 3-cards after opening 1♠ is undesirable).

There are several work-arounds for this problem. Note that it goes away completely if you agree to play Gazilli (as Elianna and I do) or Riton, or some similar convention. Another alternative is to play that 3♣ is explicitly an artificial game-forcing call with some kind of relay follow-ups.

Another note is that this problem becomes much more serious in the context of 2/1 game forcing (which Elianna and I do not play) because the 1NT response is that much more wide-ranging. Playing a non-forcing limited 1NT response, 4♣ is virtually automatic on any hand with a club fit because the need to distinguish between "good slam hand with club fit" and "bad slam hand with club fit" is much reduced by the narrower 1NT range.

However, as I understand "normal" 2/1, rebidding three (and even two) card minors at the three-level to establish a game force is normal. With this in mind I don't want to leap to the five-level on what could be an eight (or even seven) card club fit. Raising to 4♣ gives partner an "out" -- he can rebid 4♠ if he has six or more of them with three or fewer clubs, while also keeping 5♣ or even 6♣ in the picture.

[jdonn]

mikestar, on Jun 8 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

awm, on Jun 8 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

AKQxxxx
Ax
x
Axx

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system.

If partner would jump shift with that, he deserves to be hanged. To me, this 9 trick hand is a 2♣ opener; but if not, then jump to 4♠ (or 3NT if this shows a hand with solid spades in your methods.)

Please let's don't invent bids on three card suits when it isn't necessary. Opposite a partner who does this regularly, I'm inclined to give up on slam--if the three card clubs suit is possible, your club length makes it more likely that he has only three than if you were shorter.

What about with worse spades, like AKxxxxx AQ x Axx? I really dislike 4♠, you would do that on a far weaker hand, that minus one of the side aces, and rebidding 3NT is just dumb. To me 3♣ is the totally obvious choice, and I don't see why this means I deserve to be hanged by partner, who jumped to 5♣ prematurely for reasons I still don't understand. And I agree that it could also even be a doubleton on rarer occasions, such as a similar 7222 hand. As long as partner is aware that the jump shift is required on certain hands like this, there should be no problems.

[keylime]

To me bidding 4 encourages partner to do the wrong thing. Bidding five immediately shows the hand listed and allows pard to reevaluate.

[moysian]

Why this enthusiasm for slam??? Game may even be a stretch against my rags.

I bid 3d, hoping pard will bid 3n. If he rebids spades, I retreat to 4c, leaving the decision for game to P. If P rebids 4c, I'll carry on to 5. If he jump rebids 5c, showing a true monster, I'll bid 6.

The tough one comes if P tries 3h, asking for help in stopping H. I'll probably try 3n, because now I think we may have 3 quick losers in the red suits. Pard could have something like AKQxx - Kx - Jx - AQxx.

[EricK]

What do you guys think of the idea of swapping responder's support bids so that 3♠ shows ♣ support and 4♣ shows ♠?

[cf_John0]

3♦,might have a contract of 3NT

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jun 8 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

mikestar, on Jun 8 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

awm, on Jun 8 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

I'll bid 4♣. I don't like the methods either, but the fact is that opener sometimes has to make up a bid with a one-suited game force. Jumping to 5♣ can easily hang partner if he holds something like:

AKQxxxx
Ax
x
Axx

I'm sure some people open 2♣ with that, some people rebid 3NT or 4♠, some people use an artificial rebid over 1NT to show it... but I think it is within the range of 3♣ bids in a standard system. I would rather play 4♠ than 5♣ opposite this hand for sure.

So I agree with Josh on the bidding, and agree with everyone else who wishes we were playing a better system.

If partner would jump shift with that, he deserves to be hanged. To me, this 9 trick hand is a 2♣ opener; but if not, then jump to 4♠ (or 3NT if this shows a hand with solid spades in your methods.)

Please let's don't invent bids on three card suits when it isn't necessary. Opposite a partner who does this regularly, I'm inclined to give up on slam--if the three card clubs suit is possible, your club length makes it more likely that he has only three than if you were shorter.

What about with worse spades, like AKxxxxx AQ x Axx? I really dislike 4♠, you would do that on a far weaker hand, that minus one of the side aces, and rebidding 3NT is just dumb. To me 3♣ is the totally obvious choice, and I don't see why this means I deserve to be hanged by partner, who jumped to 5♣ prematurely for reasons I still don't understand. And I agree that it could also even be a doubleton on rarer occasions, such as a similar 7222 hand. As long as partner is aware that the jump shift is required on certain hands like this, there should be no problems.

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

After 1♠ -1N:

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts
3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue
3N = club jump shift

Direct bids:

3♦ = natural with diamonds
3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

----------------------

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Jun 9 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

After 1♠  -1N:

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts
3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue
3N = club jump shift

Direct bids:

3♦ = natural with diamonds
3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

----------------------

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

You might not have a shortness. AQJxxx AK xx AQx or so.

Just at a glance I can see three things that treatment loses (which is not to say you shouldn't play it). You give them an artificial bid to double. You keep either player from describing anything over the strong jump shift with clubs (imagine opener is 6-4 for example and that you belong in spades, or that responder has a hidden heart suit). And you don't get to show what your fragment is when you are single suited with spades, which is extraordinarilly useful for responder to evaluate, although I suppose if you wanted you could define the 4 level bids by opener over the relay as well.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jun 9 2006, 08:40 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 9 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Any big sngle suited hand like AKxxxxx, AQ, x, Axx could be handled with a auto splinter.

Here's a little gadget I play with Chris that Itabashi showed him:

After 1♠  -1N:

3♣ = Artificial and forces a relay to 3♦, then:

3♥ = strong jump shift with 4 hearts
3♠ = big single suiter with spades and requests a cue
3N = club jump shift

Direct bids:

3♦ = natural with diamonds
3♥ = natural but with 5 hearts.

This little tool is easy to remember and doesn't give up anything, far as I can tell.

----------------------

Joe Kivel has a gadget too, but it starts with a forcing 2N and its a little complicated.

You might not have a shortness. AQJxxx AK xx AQx or so.

Just at a glance I can see three things that treatment loses (which is not to say you shouldn't play it). You give them an artificial bid to double. You keep either player from describing anything over the strong jump shift with clubs (imagine opener is 6-4 for example and that you belong in spades, or that responder has a hidden heart suit). And you don't get to show what your fragment is when you are single suited with spades, which is extraordinarilly useful for responder to evaluate, although I suppose if you wanted you could define the 4 level bids by opener over the relay as well.

If you have these concerns, you'd like the forcing 2N response. I don't have the notes handy, but I can tell you it is very effective in finding 6-3 fits opposite opener's fragment. Of course you give up the ability to show the 18-19 balanced.

I think the 3♣ structure is better than standard. Josh, before you were active on here, we had a lot of discussions about these semi-strong hands with single suiters. Several systems (SEF) for instance have calls tailored to show these 17++ - 21-- hands with 4 losers that fall just short of a 2♣ opener.

Doubling artificial calls in these auctions are always a red herring to me. With many systems that bring in artificiality; thats an inherent risk. But its a small price to pay.

One of my big pet peeves in bidding are phony jump shifts and phony reverses. So I guess I'm biased toward systems that avoid these distortions.

[jdonn]

Well what I actually like is the 'standard' way with none of these things, where the jump shift may be a little fake, especially in clubs. Go figure. People talk about these things as though they are crimes against humanity, but I think they work just fine as long as responder is aware of the possible hand types.

[joshs]

The way I play SJS auctions (Washington Standard):

After
1S-1N-3H
3S waiting. May be be 1-3 in the majors. Opener rebids 3N without any extra shape.
3N Lots of stuff in the minors. At least 2.5 stoppers.
4m natural (some may prefer to play these as cue-bid or as strong raises of the corresponding major)
4H at least 4 card support
4S 3 card limit raise, slam interest


After minor suit JS's direct raises usually show 5 cards.

1S-1N-3C(frequently a 3 card suit with a spade 1 suiter, on rare occasion might even be only 2...)
3D natural, strong 5+ card suit
3H natural, strong 5+ card suit
3S waiting, may be a stiff. Opener rebids 3N without extra shape (which confirms real clubs)
3N Lots of stuff in the reds
4C 5 Clubs, some slam interest or a hand that no longer thinks that 3N is a good idea. Can also be 4 clubs, singleton somewhere, and serious slam interest.
4D/H Splinters or keycard in clubs (4D is keycard if you play kickback) or whatever. 5 very strong clubs or 6 clubs.
4S 3 card limit raise, slam interest.
5C 6 card support, good trumps, not much else

Its very common to bid 3 red or 3S and then 4C to show 4 trumps and a decent hand.

Etc.

[Mariner1]

Echognome, on Jun 8 2006, 12:59 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

P - 1♠
1NT - 3♣
?

---

Partner shows you a big hand and you suddenly have this big fit.

What's your bidding plan?

This is usually solved by experienced pairs by their agreed style. Since that doesn't exist go to basics. 4c should show I was made to bid and have a dog minimum - 5c should show good fit with no control outside of clubs and length in
suit, a K is about all you are showing. You could stick in 3 diamonds however I think you have found your best fit for game and possible slam.

[mike777]

Codo, on Jun 8 2006, 01:42 AM, said:

4 ♣ with anybody forcing
(and RCK for clubs with std. partner, maybe not a winner in this situation...)

I would like to play Kickback after this, but I cannot confess my pds.

Ya, how can 4c with 4d as kickback now by pard be wrong. I can rebid 5c over any other rebid by partner.

[csarmi]

We play 2nt as GF (6+ spades or 54) thus any 3x is 55+ and GF.

[han]

jdonn, on Jun 9 2006, 11:55 AM, said:

Well what I actually like is the 'standard' way with none of these things

You are one weirdo Josh.

[Echognome]

I don't have partner's exact hand, but it was something like:

Scoring: IMP

---

As I mentioned, I didn't have the same problem because partner rebid 3NT. I was a bit annoyed because I pretty much make 6♣ whenever I make 3NT. West Lead a ♥ and a ♥ was returned. I played 2 rounds of diamodns and then the ♣A. West plays the ♣J. You then lead a club towards hand and East plays the last small club. As a reminder, your hand is:

J Qx Qxxxx KTxxx

Drop or finesse? (If you want, to make it more interesting, you can pretend you were playing 6♣.)

Also feel free to continue commenting on how the bidding should have gone after a jump shift.