[mrdct]

A recent idea I've had is to semi-automate some aspects of commentator procurement. What I have in mind is not intended as replacement of Roland, but as a tool that vugraph operators can use when they find themselves in a situation where they have insufficient commentators at their table.

I've operated a few "low-profile" events over the years and have often found myself short of commentators and I can tell you it is quite difficult to scrounge around for commentators and operate at the same time.

What I propose is that an additional class of member be added with, for example, a picture of a microphone next to their name to denote that they are "approved" commentators. Roland's mailing list would probably be the best place to start.

Vugraph operators would then have a button that they could simply click on that would automatically send invitations to all of the commentators currently online to join his or her table.

The concept could be extended to give operators the flexibility to send invitations to people from a specified country and/or skill level. In addition, anyone who is interested in commentating could click a button similar to "find me a game" or "register as a substitute" and then those people would be made available to the operator to ungag at his or her discretion.

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on May 17 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

Fortunately we also have commentators who think it's right to service other organizers and spectators too, and I have a lot of respect for these people. Personally, I will go where I am needed. I can't see the point of having 6 commentators at 1 table and none at another.

From a professional point of view there is no difference between commentating in front of 762 or 29 spectators. I wish that many more would see it this way, but it's probably a naive request.

My comments were from the point of view of a spectator, not a commentator. As a spectator I'd rather watch the Spingold or the Vanderbilt or some other big top class event, than a local event. I watch vugraph to improve my bridge, and I think the way to do that is by seeing what the really top class players do as they do it.

As a commentator I simply sign up for whatever happens to be on the schedule when I'm free (which is not very often) and go where you send me. And I will tend to take the English events because I know the people and their methods which I think makes me a better commentator.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on May 18 2006, 08:03 AM, said:

Walddk, on May 17 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

Fortunately we also have commentators who think it's right to service other organizers and spectators too, and I have a lot of respect for these people. Personally, I will go where I am needed. I can't see the point of having 6 commentators at 1 table and none at another.

From a professional point of view there is no difference between commentating in front of 762 or 29 spectators. I wish that many more would see it this way, but it's probably a naive request.

My comments were from the point of view of a spectator, not a commentator. As a spectator I'd rather watch the Spingold or the Vanderbilt or some other big top class event, than a local event. I watch vugraph to improve my bridge, and I think the way to do that is by seeing what the really top class players do as they do it.

As a commentator I simply sign up for whatever happens to be on the schedule when I'm free (which is not very often) and go where you send me. And I will tend to take the English events because I know the people and their methods which I think makes me a better commentator.

All valid points Frances. Spectators will obviously go to the rooms where they get more value for money (the money they don't pay, that is). Commentators on the other hand should go to the rooms where they are needed, and that is no problem at all for the vast majority.

Some have special wishes (a polite word for "demands"), and for obvious reasons I can't meet all of them.

Roland

[keylime]

I had a light bulb moment reading this.

Why not once the System Summaries are available, have FD-based files inputted to the pairing, so that once the tables are set, the basics are "pre-announced" in realtime?

BTW, what is the playing site? I'm thinking about volunteering (I'm overdue!).

[JanM]

keylime, on May 18 2006, 10:59 AM, said:

Why not once the System Summaries are available, have FD-based files inputted to the pairing, so that once the tables are set, the basics are "pre-announced" in realtime?

BTW, what is the playing site? I'm thinking about volunteering (I'm overdue!).

I have to confess that I found it less than obvious how to create FD files for my own system, which I (hopefully) know. Is it really feasible to do it for someone else's system? It would be great if we could, I'm just wondering - and I certainly would want the FD explanations distinguished from what the operator is actually able to see that the players said about a bid (I know that can sometimes be spotty - hopefully players will start being better about showing us their notes as time goes by).

The USBC is being held in White Plains, NY. We need all the volunteers we can get for our ambitious Vugraph schedule!! Email either me or Joan Gerard if you want to volunteer.

[keylime]

Jan,

I was trying to refer to the playing site itself (which has been told to me thankfully) - the language skills isn't as sharp as usual due to variety of things.

Second thought: How long, in terms of boards, is the delay between open/closed rooms?

[barmar]

FrancesHinden, on May 17 2006, 11:53 AM, said:

As far as I'm concerned, there's no need to have more than one table of Vugraph.
After all, I can't watch more than one table at a time. Yes, there is some benefit in offering a choice of events to watch and/or a choice of commentators, but I would much rather have less choice with a better presentation than more choice.

I'd like the choice.

I don't know about you, but I much prefer watching players I've heard of. I'll rarely bother with a Vu-Graph if I don't know any of the players -- I'll go kibbitz a set game at the weedo or grannovetter table instead.

So if they decide to display the Pacific Asian tournament on Vu-Graph and not the American game, they might as well not have a Vu-Graph at all as far as I'm concerned.

[JanM]

keylime, on May 18 2006, 12:02 PM, said:

I was trying to refer to the playing site itself (which has been told to me thankfully) - the language skills isn't as sharp as usual due to variety of things.

Second thought: How long, in terms of boards, is the delay between open/closed rooms?

Sorry - in case anyone else is also interested in the site, it's the Crowne Plaza in White Plains. For more information about the tournament and other USBF events, see http://www.usbf.org/tournaments.html

I'm not sure what you mean by "delay between open/closed rooms." The boards are played simultaneously in the two rooms, so the only way there's a delay is if one table is faster than the other.

[keylime]

Ok, I understand now - didn't know if they were ferrying boards or if there were two sets of boards in play concurrently.

[mrdct]

barmar, on May 18 2006, 12:20 PM, said:

So if they decide to display the Pacific Asian tournament on Vu-Graph and not the American game, they might as well not have a Vu-Graph at all as far as I'm concerned.

It must be wonderful to live in the centre of the universe.

[pclayton]

Hi Jan:

Not much to add here, just focus on the basics,

1. This starts with the person operating the VG being well-trained. Nothing ruins a broadcast like an operator missing the play, or having to undo multiple calls or plays, only to end up with a mysterious 'claim' at the end of the hand.

2. As long as the commentators are intelligent and have a good rapport, things will take care of themselves. I don't see the need to ask them to focus on different aspects of the broadcast. I've never had a problem with not being able read all the comments from the commentators, but it drives me nuts when you have 'dead air', when the commentators are too shy to speak, or are too afraid to go out on a limb on a technically challenging hand.

3. I never have a problem with a commentator being critical of a player, and I don't care if its a team sponsor or not. I think there is an unwritten rule in this regard, and I think its a little silly.

4. 5 seems an ideal number for a big event. 4 is the minimum and perhaps 7 is the max. Again, I don't mind seeing too much commentary, but not enough is fatal.

5. A good commentator needs to think fast and type fast. If someone makes an occasional mistake, fine, but too many technical errors embarrass the commentator and it looks silly. But overall, I don't mind mistakes in an atmosphere where commentators aren't expected to be perfect. Bridge IS a game of mistakes.

6. Have at least half of the commentators have a '+++', where they can and will communicate with the audience at large.

[Walddk]

pclayton, on May 19 2006, 04:07 AM, said:

3. I never have a problem with a commentator being critical of a player, and I don't care if its a team sponsor or not. I think there is an unwritten rule in this regard, and I think its a little silly.

4. 5 seems an ideal number for a big event. 4 is the minimum and perhaps 7 is the max. Again, I don't mind seeing too much commentary, but not enough is fatal.

Regarding 3:
There is an unwritten rule and I think there should be. There must be a limit as to how critical (rude) a commentator can be to the players, or co-commentators for that matter. The solution is a simple one: that particular commentator will not be invited again. Fred and I agree.

Regarding 4:
I have a rule of thumb, given that the commentators type something regularly: 4 is the ideal number, 3 and 5 are acceptable, less than 3 is boring, and more than 5 often turns out to be chaotic. Fred and I agree again, but it's my call, and Fred never interferes with my decisions.

Roland

[uday]

Quote

It must be wonderful to live in the centre of the universe.

Fewer than half the PCs that connect to BBO are set to use English these days, fwiw.

[mrdct]

uday, on May 19 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

Quote

It must be wonderful to live in the centre of the universe.

Fewer than half the PCs that connect to BBO are set to use English these days, fwiw.

My point exactly.

I can't wait to see the likes of Jack Zhau, Fu Zhong, Patrick Huang, Paul Marston, Furuta Kazuo, etc. contesting the PABF zonal championships which was one of the most interesting, well presented and well patronised BBO vugraph events last year.

[Walddk]

I don't think any of you should worry. There will be room for all of the three major events. Fred will likely be able to confirm some time next week after he returns to Las Vegas.

If for some reason Fred doesn't have time to increase the number of tables before August, I would prefer say 3, 3 and 2 tables (in no particular order) from three events rather than 4 + 4 from two.

Furthermore, we will also be helped by the time zones because New York is 6 hours behind Central Europe, and Shanghai is 6 hours ahead. What we will see is vugraph around the clock and that can't be bad. Overlaps will be few and far between.

Roland

[goose]

It is great to get feedback about commentating and i only wish there was more of it. We want to try and please the number of people for as much of the time as possible and are not on ego trips to show everyone how clever we are. Perhaps it might be an idea to be able to set up a system where people can remark of commentary and commentators anonymously so as not to offend? This could be used by Roland as a constructive way to improve commentaries.

GIB is useful but more often as an intellectual pastime rather than relating to real situations at the Bridge Table. Do not many of us enjoy problems such as those in 'Adventures in Card Play'?

I fully agree that more of us should try and analyse what is going through a player's head when they encounter a problem. For myself, i always try and do this but could never equal the best exponent, Zia Mahmood.

As far as getting paid, sure it would be nice but i cant think that it would change many peoples' lifestyles and my time restrictions revolve around work; the earnings from which would never be compensated by a few dollars here and there. No, i commentate because i enjoy it and enjoy it all the more when there is a good meld of people which Roland does he utmost to achieve. The altruistic point of "giving something back to the game" is a nice one and i hope a by-product of my enjoyment.

[Walddk]

Don't think everybody knows. goose is David Greenwood (jtr) from Ireland.

Roland

[JanM]

Walddk, on May 19 2006, 04:28 AM, said:

If for some reason Fred doesn't have time to increase the number of tables before August, I would prefer say 3, 3 and 2 tables (in no particular order) from three events rather than 4 + 4 from two.

I agree about having more events, rather than more tables from one event. One way to accomplish that within the present constraints (I think) is to have the closed room table be invisible. That way the OR would show everything with commentary, and the movie would have the bidding and play available for anyone who wants to look at it. With the time zones as they are in August, it might be possible to have some of the CRs invisible to begin with (or at the end ) when there was overlap, and then make them visible when the other event goes off the air. I'm not sure if it's possible for a table (or really an operator) to change from invisible to visible without logging off and back on, but as long as it's the CR and the OR is always visible, I think it should work.
From my point of view as an organizer, that would give us a chance to use less experienced Vugraph operators at the invisible tables so they could get more experience. We might even be able to put the faster players (who are often ones who play their cards so quickly that the operator can't see them and thus has a hard time following the play ) in the CR.
Another thought, but I know it's not feasible at the moment - I'm pretty sure that different spectators want different things in a broadcast. Some would like to be "entertained" by information about the players, interchange between the commentators, that sort of things. Others would like more technical information about the bidding systems. Some would rather no commentary at all. Some want the operator to report on body language, feel of the room, etc. Others just want a "machine" that reports the bids and plays. Maybe at some time in the future we can identify rooms as "colorful" "technical" "inside information" etc and let spectators choose which room to watch on that basis.

[hrothgar]

JanM, on May 19 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that different spectators want different things in a broadcast. Some would like to be "entertained" by information about the players, interchange between the commentators, that sort of things. Others would like more technical information about the bidding systems. Some would rather no commentary at all. Some want the operator to report on body language, feel of the room, etc. Others just want a "machine" that reports the bids and plays. Maybe at some time in the future we can identify rooms as "colorful" "technical" "inside information" etc and let spectators choose which room to watch on that basis.

Hi Janet

I agree with the basic theme of your suggestion, however, I'm not sure that you take it to the logical conclusion.

At the moment, you seem to be assuming a fairly static 1:1 mapping between "rooms" and commentary. Its not clear to me whether this is necessary (or desirable). For example, lets assume that BBO is showing the Bermedua Bowl final. I'd love to see one channel reserved for technical discussions of the hand and see all the jokes/coke discussions exiled to another channel.

[mike777]

As a side note I really think we all or at least we oldie, not techy players are going to be shocked with the tech advances coming in the next few years. Full Hologram vugraphs in our living rooms may be a bit down the road but I expect huge shocking improvements in our home computer screens in the near future.

Perhaps Ms. Martel can give us some insights into this brave new viewing world?