[mikeh]

hrothgar, on May 15 2006, 01:39 PM, said:

In short, i have zero confidence that Burgess would advocate a 5♥ opening.  When I posted my comment about Burgess I was simply responding to Mike's asserting that strong players favor 1 level openings and nice controlled auctions with storng 2 suited patterns.

A 7-4 can and should often be treated as a one-suiter. However, a strong 7-5, with a powerful second suit, is (in my view) clearly a 2-suiter. When you invoke Burgess and his 7-4 'rule', you are arguing apples and oranges.

As for the 'controlled' part of your post, I refer you to jdonn, with whose post I agree

[luis]

foo, on May 15 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

*checks to make sure... ...yep*
Folks, this is the _Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion_ area.

Namyats does not belong here. Neither does anyone's pet conventioal or preemptive way of bidding shapely hands that is not Standard.

Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x
Playing KISS SA or 2/1 GF or whatever; the call here is to open 1H


Possible Uncontested Auctions:
If it goes 1H-1S or 1N; then 3C ...which isn't perfect but should get you to Game.

If CHO 2/1's, you don't let the bidding stop until you've explored slam.


Possible Contested Auctions:
It doesn't matter. You are never letting the opponents play this board below slam and if They do compete to 6 you can decide whether tp X them or bid 6 yourself based on the previous auction.
No matter what, if They bid 7 then you are going to X Them.



Regardless of what the Bridge Gods deal you, always make a plan for all likely general directions the auction might take before you decide what to do.

I have to strongly disagree what with you say.

"This is the beginners and Intermediate Bridge discussion Namyats don't belong here"

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing, it just means they are still in their learning process and may not know as many things as experts or not have enough experience.
I hate it when somebody dismisses an idea because the target are beg/ints, they are capable enough to know what they can understand and what they can't, if this is too advanced they can bookmark it and ignore and read it a few months later. If they can understand it then why not let them read ? Who are you to decide what a B/I can understand and what they can't ?

Even world champions were B/I at one point in their bridge lives, what you know and what you CAN learn are completely different things.

No offense please but be careful when you say such a thing.

Luis

[Walddk]

luis, on May 15 2006, 09:00 PM, said:

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing

Of course they are not stupid, and foo didn't say that. He said that Namyats does not belong here, and I have to agree with him. One thing is to learn what 4♣ and 4♦ should show, another and more complex thing is to comprehend the subsequent auction if responder doesn't sign off in opener's suit.

How many partnerships have a clear agreement on what 4♦, 4♠ and 4NT show over 4♣, and how many have discussed what 4♥ and 4NT show over 4♦?

I have said this over and over again and I do not mind repeating it: In my opinion beginners and intermediates should concentrate on the basics, and when they master all that (very few do although they claim that they do), they can start looking further ahead. It's something about crawling before you walk, and not the other way around.

They can understand 1♥ and 2♣, but they are lost when you suggest 4♣ or 5♥ (so am I, by the way, as far as 5♥ is concerned).

Roland

[foo]

luis, on May 15 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

Do you think that beginners and ints are stupid? The fact that they are learning does not mean they can't understand what Namyats are or what we are discussing, it just means they are still in their learning process and may not know as many things as experts or not have enough experience.

Whoa! Please do not put words in my mouth or attribute attitudes to me that I have not expressed.

Conventions and "pet" ways of bidding hands in a non standard way are for solving specific problems BY AGREEMENT within in the context of a SPECIFIC partnership.
They are NOT things that a player can count on being in place when sitting down with a new partner of their level. Nor should they be.

I am a self-professed Mad Scientist and have been since I first started playing, so there is no way that I'm against using Theory and Gadgets.

However, it is unfair, unreasonable, and =unkind= to tell beginners and intermediates to add or use some non-standard convention or treatment whenever they come to us with a bidding problem!

=1st= we should tell them how best to solve the problem using Standard methods.
(Richard made a point on this in another thread that I think was well made and perhaps not as respected as it should have been. Unfortunately, he seems to have forgotten his own POV in this thread.)

=Then= and only then we should mention OPTIONAL pet conventions and treatments beyond Standard for handling a specific problem.

Otherwise, we are making it more difficult rather than less for newer players to get enough experience and bidding judgement to be able to play in most situations.

[inquiry]

I think mentioning naymats as one option is not going to destroy any beginners/intermediate view of the world. Any beginner reading this thread will see...

1) The majority think opening 1♥ with this hand is fine.
2) If playing acol 2♥ opening 2♥ might be an option
3) If playing naymats, opening 4♣ might be an option
4) Some bite the bullet and open 4♥ (huge underbid imho)
5) If running on the wild side at least one person will open 5♥

Even the 5♥ bid was worth seeing here, because it allowed the CORRECT meaning of 5♥ to be expressed (at least as far as beginners are concerned).. bid slam with A or K of hearts, bid grand with both.

So I will disagree with Roland and Foo. Talking about naymats in the context of a problem like this is fine, especially when the main stream position (open 1♥) has such overwelming support (yes even from me). Also note, I kept my pet convention out of this thread... it was hard, but I did it.

[Walddk]

inquiry, on May 15 2006, 09:41 PM, said:

So I will disagree with Roland and Foo. Talking about naymats in the context of a problem like this is fine

Excuse me, but what's the point of mentioning Namyats if you don't explain what it shows?

>>I would open 4♣ (namyats) and take my chances of missing a slam vs them not finding the spades<<, Luis says. Does he explain what Namyats implies, or should one expect that beginners and/or intermediates know? I don't think so.


Roland

[foo]

I'm with Roland all the way on this, and I help teach enough lower level players that I think I have a reasonably decent idea as to how most of their minds work.

Beginners and Intermediates are still learning what the DEFAULT language of bidding is for their area. The vast majority are just developing and learning how to apply logic and visualization to a bridge context. etc. etc.

Conventions and pet treatments are more effort for them to learn that, if done right, require a lot of attention that in most cases would be better spent on other more fundamental things that are going to occur or be stressed more often.

Then there is the memory and judgement overhead required to play whatever convention or pet treatment we are talking about correctly.

Take Roland's challenge:
=W/O= prior discusion except the agreement to play Namyats, how many of you are =sure= that you and a random advanced+ partner will get =all= of the possible Namyats auctions right and that you will be on the same wavelength with partner as to what hands open Namyats and what hands open 4M?

If you are honest, it requires a substantial partnership effort to play most conventions or pet treatments correctly. Even the common ones. Let alone the more esoteric ones like Namyats or the "Steve Burgess 74 Opening" or ...

Beginners and Intermediates will improve their game and their enjoyment of the game more by spending that same amount of effort on other things.

IMNSHO a forum where I see people not sure how to bid 54 in the majors opposite a NT opening when playing Stayman and Jacoby Transfers is =NOT= the place to be adding esoteric conventions and treatments to the discussion.

Especially if all you are going to do is mention them w/o really explaining them.
Look at what I had to post to =really= explain NMF in another thread.
Then reconsider whether you are doing B/I's any favors by telling them to use a convention or treatment you don't fully explain rather than how to bid something using Standard.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x

I prefer 1♥ on this hand. Big 2-suiters are best started on the 1-level. The chance that if you open 2♣ and opps shoot high before you can show your suit is higher than that all pass if you bid your longest suit.

[pclayton]

I'm not sure I get the point of discussing a freak 7-5 in a B/I forum. If its to demonstrate to them that a 2♣ opening is senseless, then fine.

I don't think NAMYATS is that far out, but I understand keeping it locked up from the kiddies, lest they cut themselves on such a sharp power tool

[luis]

Walddk, on May 15 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

inquiry, on May 15 2006, 09:41 PM, said:

So I will disagree with Roland and Foo. Talking about naymats in the context of a problem like this is fine

Excuse me, but what's the point of mentioning Namyats if you don't explain what it shows?

>>I would open 4♣ (namyats) and take my chances of missing a slam vs them not finding the spades<<, Luis says. Does he explain what Namyats implies, or should one expect that beginners and/or intermediates know? I don't think so.


Roland

Yes I might have dropped a line or two about what Namyats are.
In a short form a strong version of the 4♥/4♠ openings in 4♣/4♦.
The exact requirements and continuations vary per partnership agreements the idea is to be able to open at the 4 level with either weak hands (preempts) or not so weak hands, this makes interference harder. We may open a thread in this forums to discuss Namyats and the different styles we play, can be an instructive thread I think.

Luis