[Poky]

IMP. We vul.

♠K10x
♥x
♦KJ98x
♣A10xx

1♦ 4♥ Dbl* pass
???

* takeout

What is your bid and explain why?

[inquiry]

It might be just me, but pass and 4NT don't seem to be options. That leaves 4♠ and 5♣. If this was matchpoints, which it is not, I would try 4♠'s, at worse it should be a moysein with player with three card trumps short in the force suit.

Since this is imps, I have a second option: 5♣, not that 5♣ is necessarily any better than 4♠. I think I will still bid 4♠ at imps, since we can easlily be off two ACES on this auctin plus a slow trick, but I am less certain 4♠ is right at imps than at mp.

[Codo]

I openend 11 HCps without the majors, hmm, okay, not my prefered style, but at least I had no rebidproblem...

Now, I do have one.

Unluckily, pd is not short in hearts, so we cannot play him for 4144. So maybe he doubled with some 3334? Maybe, but in that case, he surely has 4 Spades. Anyway, I may miss a good club fit, but I search for the 3-3 fit and bid a confident 4 Spade.
At least, I need not to table my hand as dummy, which is a success...

[luis]

4NT same length in both minors.

Luis

[Codo]

luis, on May 15 2006, 10:09 PM, said:

4NT same length in both minors.

Luis

You trade KJ98x as same length as ATxx? Interesting view...
maybe "99.57% of the good bridge pairs play" it different....

[FrancesHinden]

inquiry, on May 15 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

It might be just me, but pass and 4NT don't seem to be options.

The difference between 4NT and 5C is a mildly interesting theoretical point.
There are two ways round of playing this

i) 4NT shows both minors, as 'close' in lengths as is practicable
ii) 4NT shows both minors, big emphasis on diamonds

You might think that the first of these is 'obviously' correct, until you realise that the corollary is

i) 5C shows much longer diamonds than clubs
ii) 5C shows serious clubs

where the second seems even more 'obviously' correct....

FWIW, I play 5C as being serious about clubs, and 4NT as diamonds with clubs on the side.

If you play Precision or some other nebulous 1D opening (or if you like opening 1D on 45 in the minors) you are probably better off playing 4NT as both minors, equal length or longer diamonds and 5C as both minors, longer clubs.

On this hand I'll bid 4S I suppose. But it could be a 3-3 fit.

[luis]

Codo, on May 15 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

luis, on May 15 2006, 10:09 PM, said:

4NT same length in both minors.

Luis

You trade KJ98x as same length as ATxx? Interesting view...
maybe "99.57% of the good bridge pairs play" it different....

I opened 1♦ so having 5-4 is logical, I always open my longest minor when pd is not a passed hand. 5♣ to me here would then show 5 clubs, either 6-4 or 5-5 in the minors.
5♦ denies 4 clubs. Then 4NT is either 5-4 or 4-4 which is what I have.

Luis.

[hatchett]

I think pass is percentage, I have no idea what the right strain is so I'll take whatever plus is coming, okay I know it's -590! To pull I'd rather have another high card to increase my chances of making. I hate pulling to a three card suit when pass is a reasonable alternative.

For me 5C over the double would show at least 5C, if I want to move on this shape then 4NT would be the call.

[inquiry]

FrancesHinden, on May 15 2006, 08:31 AM, said:

FWIW, I play 5C as being serious about clubs, and 4NT as diamonds with clubs on the side.

Yes, this is what I play too (I though this meaning was more or less universal). So 4NT is out since I don't have a strong preference for ♦ with some clubs on the side. In fact, I would just as well assume clubs as diamonds, so I would never bid 4NT to place emphasis on ♦'s,

[mikeh]

5♣

Pass is possible, but could be disastrous: could be a dreaded double game swing.

4♠ is superficially attractive, but partner may pass it with 3=2=3=5 for example and even a 4=3 may not fare well. Sure, we could get lucky and hit 5 in dummy, but he will often have bid 4♠ with opening values and a good 5 card suit.

He has to be ready for 5 minor, and I am one of those for whom 4N would suggest a 2 card discrepancy in minor suit length.

So I bid an unhappy, but in tempo, 5♣

[han]

luis, on May 15 2006, 08:40 AM, said:

Codo, on May 15 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

luis, on May 15 2006, 10:09 PM, said:

4NT same length in both minors.

Luis

You trade KJ98x as same length as ATxx? Interesting view...
maybe "99.57% of the good bridge pairs play" it different....

I opened 1♦ so having 5-4 is logical, I always open my longest minor when pd is not a passed hand. 5♣ to me here would then show 5 clubs, either 6-4 or 5-5 in the minors.
5♦ denies 4 clubs. Then 4NT is either 5-4 or 4-4 which is what I have.

Luis.

Luis, you keep amazing me. Are your opponents able to keep a straight face when you explain that 4NT shows either equal length in the minors or much longer diamonds?

I play it like Ben, so 4NT is not an option.

[whereagles]

Actually, Luis might have a point here. 5♣ clearly means "I REALLY like clubs", which probably means a 55. So 54's and 64's bid 4NT, showing 2 places to play.

[luis]

whereagles, on May 15 2006, 06:13 PM, said:

Actually, Luis might have a point here. 5♣ clearly means "I REALLY like clubs", which probably means a 55. So 54's and 64's bid 4NT, showing 2 places to play.

That is exactly my idea, thanks :-)

[foo]

I like 4N, and not just for the reasons Luis has given.

4N also implies that my hand is a bit on the flexible side. After, all if I am 44 or 54 in the minors, then I have to be 32 or 31 or 22 in the Majors.

...and that mean that if GOP had 5 S's and was making the best of their bad choices, they might very well find a way to keep S's under consideration.

I'd also note that a 4N rebid has a large chance of causing the auction to "run off the rails" if used with a partner not sophisticated enough for it. Before you make what may be a $2 bid, make sure you do not have a $.50 partner...

[jdonn]

4NT is flexible, fine, but it implies spades? That's news to me. What do you bid on a similar strength 1264 hand?

The original poster can call 4NT takeout, but all it really is is an opening hand or near opening hand, without six spades or very long clubs or big diamond support. All these shapes must double if they have values.

4333
5224
4342
5323
3334

And many more in between. What else can you do on these hands when you have values, you either have to double, pass, or make some ridiculous wild stab at the contract. My point is that while you will often have a perfectly good fit to play in, you often won't also, and even if you have it you still have to find it. Not to mention that any marginal fit probably has suits not breaking, and if you should be doubled you will be doubled.

If I was bidding I would do 4NT. But it's imps, and I take the cash. Pass.

EDIT: Also, shouldn't this thread be called opener's rebid?

[foo]

jdonn, on May 15 2006, 03:40 PM, said:

4NT is flexible, fine, but it implies spades? That's news to me. What do you bid on a similar strength 1264 hand?

The original poster can call 4NT takeout, but all it really is is an opening hand or near opening hand, without six spades or very long clubs or big diamond support. All these shapes must double if they have values.

4333
5224
4342
5323
3334

And many more in between. What else can you do on these hands when you have values, you either have to double, pass, or make some ridiculous wild stab at the contract. My point is that while you will often have a perfectly good fit to play in, you often won't also, and even if you have it you still have to find it. Not to mention that any marginal fit probably has suits not breaking, and if you should be doubled you will be doubled.

If I was bidding I would do 4NT. But it's imps, and I take the cash. Pass.

EDIT: Also, shouldn't this thread be called opener's rebid?

w/ =1264 after 1D-(4H)-X;-??
I'm bidding 5D unless the D's are weak and the C's are chunky.
One thing I am =not= doing is implying that my hand is very flexible as to strain. We are playing 5m. It's just a choice as to which m.

Disagree that all of
=4333, =5224, =4342, =5323, =3334
Responders "must" X if they have values in this auction.
Particularly in the case of the 4333's.
Sometimes the most likely way to get a good score is to Defend. Especially when there is a decent chance that We are "taking the last guess."
I agree w/ Robson and Segal that We should never take the last guess.

I also disagree about pass being clear here.
GOP's X suggests a hand not suitable to defend. Unless our hand is more suitable to defend 4H than to play, we should bid.
Regardless of the form of scoring.

[joshs]

inquiry, on May 15 2006, 07:51 AM, said:

It might be just me, but pass and 4NT don't seem to be options. That leaves 4♠ and 5♣. If this was matchpoints, which it is not, I would try 4♠'s, at worse it should be a moysein with player with three card trumps short in the force suit.

Since this is imps, I have a second option: 5♣, not that 5♣ is necessarily any better than 4♠. I think I will still bid 4♠ at imps, since we can easlily be off two ACES on this auctin plus a slow trick, but I am less certain 4♠ is right at imps than at mp.

Facenating. I thought pass and 4N were the only options. Bidding a 3 card spade suit at the 4 level strikes me as silly, unless you were paid by the opponents or somehow wanted a minus score.

The main question is what 4N means. I think its both minors with longer diamonds. 5C shows a 5 card suit. If someone wants to convince me that 4N is natural, then I am all ears... Also its possible that if you never open 1D with 4D and 5C, that 4N would show 6-4 and 5C might only be 5-4.

If my partner will truely pass 4H with Hxx in hearts and a 12 count and will only x with shortness or lots of transferable values (i.e. its really for takeout), then I will bid 4N (I have such partners). Otherwise I am passing. I actually prefer the style where x really is takeout oriented...

[jdonn]

foo, on May 15 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

w/ =1264 after 1D-(4H)-X;-??
I'm bidding 5D unless the D's are weak and the C's are chunky.
One thing I am =not= doing is implying that my hand is very flexible as to strain.  We are playing 5m.  It's just a choice as to which m.

Disagree that all of
=4333, =5224, =4342, =5323, =3334
Responders "must" X if they have values in this auction.
Particularly in the case of the 4333's.
Sometimes the most likely way to get a good score is to Defend.  Especially when there is a decent chance that We are "taking the last guess."
I agree w/ Robson and Segal that We should never take the last guess.

I also disagree about pass being clear here.
GOP's X suggests a hand not suitable to defend.  Unless our hand is more suitable to defend 4H than to play, we should bid.
Regardless of the form of scoring.

I hope your partner isn't 4315 when you bid 5♦.

You are misapplying the statement 'never take the last guess'. That is good advice indeed, but refers to this type of auction:
If on some auction you bid X, the opponents are likely to bid Y, and you won't know whether or not to bid X+1. Thus you should bid X+1 to begin with and make them decide whether or not to bid Y+1. You force them to make the last guess instead of you.
On this auction, when you bid 4NT you are guessing that you should be playing instead of defending. Anything you do is a guess unless you are looking at all four hands (ok ok, any three hands.) There is no avoiding a guess so you do what you feel tends to be right. If that is bidding then ok, but it can't be justified by misapplying a slogan.

I don't know from where you are pulling the inference that partner's double shows offensive values but no interest in defending. It shows cards, points, strength. There are not enough bids at this level to make such a fine distinction. You can say all you want that it shows offense not defense, but it isn't true. I can't say it any better than Steve Robinson, talking about the auction 1♣ (4♦) DBL. Note the multitude of shapes he includes as examples, including 3433.

"Partner opens 1♣, RHO bids 4♦ and you have Kxx KQxx Kx xxxx, Kx Qxxxx Kx KJxx, AQxx Kxxx x Jxxx or AQx KQxx xxx KJx. In other words, [the double shows] a balanced opening bid. If you pass it could go all pass. What choice do you have? You must double. High-level doubles show strength and don’t promise any specific distribution. If you have a balanced opening bid, your only choice is to double." That is from his bimonthly bidding poll

http://www.districts...05/Sol0511.html

[foo]

jdonn, on May 15 2006, 05:14 PM, said:

You are misapplying the statement...

...and you a misapplying or inappropriately generalizing a few things.

Quote

On this auction, when you bid 4NT you are guessing that you should be playing instead of defending. Anything you do is a guess unless you are looking at all four hands (ok ok, any three hands.) There is no avoiding a guess so you do what you feel tends to be right. If that is bidding then ok, but it can't be justified by misapplying a slogan.

Wrong. I never said anything about guessing and if this situation was about guessing I'd tell people to roll some form of weighted dice rather than try and use logic and visualization to decide what best to do. I was using the "slogan" correctly.

A guess is just that, akin to rolling dice or flipping a coin or whatever. It is a =random= action.

Random actions do not good bridge make.

Quote

I don't know from where you are pulling the inference that partner's double shows offensive values but no interest in defending. It shows cards, points, strength. There are not enough bids at this level to make such a fine distinction. You can say all you want that it shows offense not defense, but it isn't true. I can't say it any better than Steve Robinson, talking about the auction 1C (4D) DBL. Note the multitude of shapes he includes as examples, including 3433.

"Partner opens 1C, RHO bids 4D and you have...

First, you blatently ignored my post. I said X shows =convertable values=, not offensive values. Of course it would be wonderful if we have offensive values, but that is not often the case.

...and here we have an inappropriate overgeneralization on your part of an expert's advice.
1= the auctions are nowhere near the same. Steve is talking about an auction where the Majors are both unbid. Big Difference.

2= Every hand Steve posted had 7+ cards in the unbids and =at worst= xxx in the opponent's suit. In all examples except one there were 2- cards in the opponent's suit.
IOW, every example Steve posted had =convertable values= and a reasonably non defensive ODR.

Yes, there are good hands that should pass rather than X or bid here.


I've noticed a trend in these forums.
People seem to think that preempts can always be punished or bid around.
Time to make the perhaps ugly truth explicit.

PREEMPTS WORK.

That's why people use them. For all the Science and bravado I see being brought to bear with the intent of negating their effectiveness, sometimes you willl have no choice but to defend or guess when They preempt.

Don't be conned into playing bad bridge just "because you don't want to be stolen from". Bid as accurately as you can and play the odds as best you can. And accept that if They get you on this board, you are going to be given the chance to return the favor at some point in the future.

[jdonn]

foo, on May 16 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

Wrong.  I never said anything about guessing

You mean except for in the post prior to your last one, when you were speaking all about the concept: "Sometimes the most likely way to get a good score is to Defend. Especially when there is a decent chance that We are "taking the last guess."
I agree w/ Robson and Segal that We should never take the last guess."

foo, on May 16 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

First, you blatently ignored my post.  I said X shows =convertable values=, not offensive values.

I again am giving you credit for exactly what you said: "GOP's X suggests a hand not suitable to defend." Does not suitable to defend mean offensive values, or just a total yarbrough? You never used the term convertible values, now you are misquoting yourself.

I don't have a problem with changing your tune, but don't tell me I'm misquoting you when I'm not.

foo, on May 16 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

...and here we have an inappropriate overgeneralization on your part of an expert's advice.

1= the auctions are nowhere near the same.  Steve is talking about an auction where the Majors are both unbid.  Big Difference.

The generalization was on the expert's part, not mine. As he said "High-level doubles show strength and don’t promise any specific distribution. If you have a balanced opening bid, your only choice is to double."
He did not make allowances for which if any majors are unbid. He specifically made his reference to high level doubles.

foo, on May 16 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

Don't be conned into playing bad bridge just "because you don't want to be stolen from".

That is advice that someone who wants to pass, like I do, would be giving to someone who wants to bid, like you do. And now you are the one quoting something I never said.