[jdonn]

x AKxx x AKQJ876

Practice session at imp scoring, both vul, RHO deals.
A could-be-short 1♣ is opened on your right.

What do you bid with the following agreements in place?

Any club bid now except for 2♣ is natural, and technically preemptive though they are sound hands.

If you double, the cheapest club bid on the next round is a cuebid, any jump in clubs is...unclear, but likely a splinter for a single jump anyway.

If you pass and partner doesn't bid, any club bid you make next is natural with a jump in clubs showing a good (not preemptive) hand. However if partner bids then they might become cuebids, depending on the auction.

[mike777]

5Clubs giving up on slam.

[hrothgar]

gack...

Mark me down for an immediate 5♣
I'll save my dwindling neurons for a non freak hand

[pclayton]

Very tough hand.

Maybe its better to pass this and back in with clubs later. 5♣ is possible I guess too.

Another idea is to over 1♥ and get excited if pard DOESNT raise hearts.

[awm]

I'll pass. In my experience, preempting with strong hands doesn't lead to a lot of good results. This isn't going to pass out, and I can bid clubs at my second turn.

The reasons I don't like bids like 5♣ here:

(1) It's not like 5♣ is cold in your hand. If it's not making, there's a fair chance the opponents didn't have a game either. And you're not really giving LHO a "guess" if he doesn't have any values, which is quite possible given the opening on your right and the 17 points in your hand.

(2) It's also possible that 6♣ is making. Will partner find a raise on Axx Qxxx xxxx xx? Doubtful.

(3) What if LHO manages to find a 5♠ call? Do we double with only two sure defensive tricks (LHO void in clubs is actually quite likely on the bidding)? This is a good way to defend 5♠X making. But if we don't double, they could easily be sacrificing against our making 5♣ or 6♣.

[jdonn]

awm, on May 12 2006, 03:46 PM, said:

I'll pass. In my experience, preempting with strong hands doesn't lead to a lot of good results. This isn't going to pass out, and I can bid clubs at my second turn.

The reasons I don't like bids like 5♣ here:

(1) It's not like 5♣ is cold in your hand. If it's not making, there's a fair chance the opponents didn't have a game either. And you're not really giving LHO a "guess" if he doesn't have any values, which is quite possible given the opening on your right and the 17 points in your hand.

(2) It's also possible that 6♣ is making. Will partner find a raise on Axx Qxxx xxxx xx? Doubtful.

(3) What if LHO manages to find a 5♠ call? Do we double with only two sure defensive tricks (LHO void in clubs is actually quite likely on the bidding)? This is a good way to defend 5♠X making. But if we don't double, they could easily be sacrificing against our making 5♣ or 6♣.

If your partner has Axx Qxxx xxx xxx, then if you pass the action will surely continue 1♠ p 2♠. How are you finding this slam now?

[mikeh]

I doubt that any number of ♣, at any time, will make bidding any potential slam easy.

I pass.

Who knows? I may be on lead against 3N doubled. Or, if partner bids, I may be opting for 3N myself. And if the opps bid and raise ♠, I can always bid up to 5♣ by myself.

I am usually opposed to passing in the hopes of going right later: all too often, the auction goes poorly for you and you either cannot do what you had hoped, or the opps have exchanged enough info to do the right thing themselves. But this hand looks like an exception to me, because I really have NO idea what action is best now and so I think that the chances of losing ground via pass are offset by the chance of learning something useful. I am not worried about being on lead against 1♣.

[pclayton]

mikeh, on May 12 2006, 01:16 PM, said:

I doubt that any number of ♣, at any time, will make bidding any potential slam easy.

I pass.

Who knows? I may be on lead against 3N doubled. Or, if partner bids, I may be opting for 3N myself. And if the opps bid and raise ♠, I can always bid up to 5♣ by myself.

I am usually opposed to passing in the hopes of going right later: all too often, the auction goes poorly for you and you either cannot do what you had hoped, or the opps have exchanged enough info to do the right thing themselves. But this hand looks like an exception to me, because I really have NO idea what action is best now and so I think that the chances of losing ground via pass are offset by the chance of learning something useful. I am not worried about being on lead against 1♣.

Further to your point: I wouldn't be that upset if 1♣ gets passed out either

[joshs]

I think there are three plans:

Plan a: Pass then After 1S-2S bid 3S, but after other autions you may be stuck

Plan b: Immediate 3N

Plan c: Immediate 5C

I think none of these will result in a scientific auction, where you can diagnosis weakness opposite one of your stiffs (or know that you can cover your slow heart losers in 5C)

Since I don't think I can get more info, I don't want the opps to get more info, so I will just blast 3N.

[han]

My first impulse is to bid 3NT, partner will likely be able to guess which suit I have.

[jdonn]

joshs, on May 12 2006, 04:54 PM, said:

I think there are three plans:

Plan a: Pass then After 1S-2S bid 3S, but after other autions you may be stuck

Plan b: Immediate 3N

Plan c: Immediate 5C

I think none of these will result in a scientific auction, where you can diagnosis weakness opposite one of your stiffs (or know that you can cover your slow heart losers in 5C)

Since I don't think I can get more info, I don't want the opps to get more info, so I will just blast 3N.

Careful generalizing that way! The first two people I gave this problem to (both 'stars') each gave a different plan than any of your three. One passed then made a big jump in clubs (he wanted to double then big jump in clubs but was worried something like 1♣ x 2♦ 4♠ p ? would leave him no such option.) The other one overcalled 1♥, a choice that I find curious but I can see why he did it.

FWIW, if you are going to blast, I think 5♣ is at least five times more likely to make than 3NT, even given that it's two tricks higher. You have two small singletons opposite a partner known to be weak, and no reason to assume a club lead from LHO who is short in the suit into the 2+ opening bid.

[pbleighton]

"5Clubs giving up on slam."

Agree. In competition, simple is usually best for most players, which definitely includes me.

Peter

[cherdano]

Hannie, on May 13 2006, 12:21 AM, said:

My first impulse is to bid 3NT, partner will likely be able to guess which suit I have.

He will, but what does that help? He has no idea you don't have QJx Kx AQ AKQJxx. I am not saying 3N is wrong, just that it is a punt, and that partner will pretty much never remove it (nor raise to 6♣).

Arend

[joshs]

jdonn, on May 12 2006, 05:32 PM, said:

joshs, on May 12 2006, 04:54 PM, said:

I think there are three plans:

Plan a: Pass then After 1S-2S bid 3S, but after other autions you may be stuck

Plan b: Immediate 3N

Plan c: Immediate 5C

I think none of these will result in a scientific auction, where you can diagnosis weakness opposite one of your stiffs (or know that you can cover your slow heart losers in 5C)

Since I don't think I can get more info, I don't want the opps to get more info, so I will just blast 3N.

Careful generalizing that way! The first two people I gave this problem to (both 'stars') each gave a different plan than any of your three. One passed then made a big jump in clubs (he wanted to double then big jump in clubs but was worried something like 1♣ x 2♦ 4♠ p ? would leave him no such option.) The other one overcalled 1♥, a choice that I find curious but I can see why he did it.

FWIW, if you are going to blast, I think 5♣ is at least five times more likely to make than 3NT, even given that it's two tricks higher. You have two small singletons opposite a partner known to be weak, and no reason to assume a club lead from LHO who is short in the suit into the 2+ opening bid.

5 times more likely?? Since my instinct was that 3N was more likely to make (maybe not double dummy), I would be curious to see a simulation. Where exactly are the 2 small hearts going to go in 5C?

So marshall overcalled 1H. Thats typical for him, but not for most everyone else...

As to
1C-P-1S-P
2S-5C

I don't understand why you wouldn't bid 3S here instead of 5C. Its not long strong diamonds, or a big red suiter or 5H and 5C since you could have bid the first time with any of those...

On other auctions you will have to bid clubs (or x 1N) having passed the first time.

[jdonn]

joshs, on May 15 2006, 02:40 PM, said:

5 times more likely?? Since my instinct was that 3N was more likely to make (maybe not double dummy), I would be curious to see a simulation. Where exactly are the 2 small hearts going to go in 5C?

So marshall overcalled 1H. Thats typical for him, but not for most everyone else...

As to
1C-P-1S-P
2S-5C

I don't understand why you wouldn't bid 3S here instead of 5C. Its not long strong diamonds, or a big red suiter or 5H and 5C since you could have bid the first time with any of those...

On other auctions you will have to bid clubs (or x 1N) having passed the first time.

He wasn't even the person I was referring to! Though I found out later he does bid 1♥, so that makes one more.