[rcbought]

Scoring: MP

---

Bidding goes pass by east, 2♠ by south, double by west, then 3♠ by north, What would you bid with east's hand?

Is double the right call in west's seat? Would 3nt be to play? What would 4♠ be and how many points would you need to bid that? and what would a double of 3♠ be; for takeout or penalty?

[P_Marlowe]

3NT is certainly to play.
I would simply bid 4C, partner did ask
for a suit preference, I have a clear
preference for club.

Since I can pass, if being broke, 4C
shows some comp. values as well, although
it is non forcing.

Double is unclear, at least for me.
With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

4♣. At IMPs I wold bid 4♠, showing minors. Not sure what the diference is between 4♠ and 4NT.

A double would be responsive, You could do that as well if you plan to pass West's 4m bid. I would prefer to have some hearts tollerance for that, though. There is a risk that West jumps to 5♥ if you double.With this West, a double from East would work fine.

[luke warm]

i'd have x'd w/ west's hand and bid 4♠ over the x

[hatchett]

I would bid 4NT, meaning pick a minor without a spade control. If you play 4NT as blackwood I would bid 4♠.

[awm]

I think the west hand is borderline between four of a minor (I would bid 4♦ even though the clubs are "better" in case I need to bid 5♣ over a cuebid from partner later) and bidding 4NT (pick a minor). Certainly it's not hard to construct takeout double hands where 5-minor goes down, or where 5-minor is cold and partner will not find a raise:

xx
KJxx
AKx
AJxx

Clear double but 5-minor has no play.

x
Axxx
Axxx
Axxx

5-minor is pretty good but I doubt I'd find a raise after the four-level bid.

In any case it's a bit of a guess. On the doubler's actual hand I would expect a raise of one level, so 4♦ will be raised to 5♦ and 4NT will be raised to 6-minor. Of course 6-minor has chances but isn't cold (it's around 50%).

[bid_em_up]

rcbought, on May 7 2006, 08:21 PM, said:

Dealer: East Vul: E/W Scoring: MP

♠ 7 ♥ AT97 ♦ AK92 ♣ AJ86 ♠ 32 ♥ Q ♦ JT765 ♣ KQT95

Bidding goes pass by east, 2♠ by south, double by west, then 3♠ by north, 1) What would you bid with east's hand?

2) Is double the right call in west's seat? 3) Would 3nt be to play?  4) What would 4♠ be and how many points would you need to bid that? 5) and what would a double of 3♠ be; for takeout or penalty?

1) 4N pick a minor, no slam interest (opposite a normal takeout double). And I consider the West hand to be on the top end of a normal takeout double, so he should not bid 6m.

2) Yes. What else should he do?

3) Yes.

4) Same hand, spade void, or stiff spade, and about KQ better, slam interest. Its not so much a function of hcp but losers and suit quality. With 2 small spades, inviting slam in highly risky. Here I would expect to have at least one loser in spades, and quite probably another on the side, so 4N would suffice.

5) Penalty. I think responsive in this scenario is not a good treatment, or your opponents will push you around with ease since you cannot double for penalty.

As always, jmoo.

[jdonn]

1) I would pass over 3♠ with the east hand, its not THAT good, and xx of the opponents' suit is a death holding. I think peoples' opinions, as usually happens, are severely tainted by knowing both hands. West would double 2♠ if the king of diamonds was another small spade too. 4♣ is also a pretty reasonable choice, you do have a pretty good suit but not enough to force to the five level on your own.

If my partner did bid 4NT and I was west, I would bid 5NT over that, slam looks really good if he has his bid (which I think this east hand doesn't, though slam could make.)

2) Double again. Not much to spare for the second double and on a bad day it could go wrong, but you can't live your life in fear and it is a pretty nice hand.

3) Yes.

4) By which player? By the original doubler at his second turn it would show a HUGE hand. By east over the 3♠ bid you could argue it is minors but I disagree since 4NT serves that purpose (blackwood is totally unimportant on these auctions when compared to other needs.) My opinion is that it shows a very good hand with a spade control and whatever suit he bids next. You could do it on a slam drive with a spade control and both minors as well, and just raise if partner bids a minor or else bid 5NT next.

5) The common treatment is technically responsive, but that's not to say 5-5 in the minors like this hand. It's really more like 'card showing', just showing values with no convenient bid and inviting partner to do whatever suits him, which very likely is passing if he has a doubleton spade. When you say penalty I assume you mean spade tricks, which you are very unlikely to have and might bid 3NT with anyway.

* After west's second double, I feel east should bid 4NT to ask him to pick a minor. East certainly has a good hand in context at that point, and the second double makes it more likely west has a stiff spade. West will choose a minor and we are in a fine spot. This auction might have led to a missed slam (say if west was 1453) but oh well. Better to miss an occasional slam when preempted than risk going down looking for one too often.

[mikeh]

1. What would 3N mean, by either player: an offer to play 3N Clearly inappropriate by either player

2. What to bid over the 3♠? Your choices appear to include: pass, double (responsive) 4♣, 4♦ or 4N, minors

Pass is out. We are vulnerable, at imps. I have long believed that it is appropriate, when advancing a takeout double to assume partner to be 4441, with a stiff in the opps' suit: and (unless you hold an Ace or two) to be x Axxx Axxx Axxx.

A takeout double of a 2♠ bid should deliver, at its low end, a tad more than a takeout double of 1♠, so assuming, here, x Axxx Axxx Axxx is not unreasonable.

Opposite that hand, passing is a terrible call: no way can/should partner reopen with that hand, yet we have missed a good vulnerable game in order to defend a contract they might even make.

Double, as responsive, would be fine if partner is assured to pull to a minor: he will not pull to a 4 card ♥ suit, so we will be fine UNLESS he passes. He might well pass with a chunky 2=4=3=4 or so, and lead a trump. While we might still go plus, it will be touch and go, especially if the ♥ suit sits well for them: imagine dummy with Axx J109xx Kxx xx and declarer with KQxxxx Kxx xx xx: partner with Jx Axxx AQx AJxx.

4 minor is a middle ground, but, once again, partner cannot know when to raise: with the x Axxx Axxx Axxx hand, he really ought to be passing 4 minor, and yet we'd love to be in game, even tho it is not cold.

4N assures us of getting to our 9 card fit, which is potentially important. It assures us of getting to game.... unfortunately, it does not assure us of making that game!

There is a warning sign (misleading on the actual hand) in that North, at favourable, bid only 3♠ with, probably 4 trump. Of course, at this heat, he has to cater to his partner havng only 5 spades and he may have terrible shape: with a big LTC, even a 10 card fit may not suffice.

Furthermore, 3♠ offers East the chance to be conservative: I'd expect a lot more votes for 4N over 4♠ than over 3♠: a point sometimes lost on the busy preemptors.

I was impressed by jdonn's post but, as is apparent, I don't agree with his choices. I am bidding 4N, not because I have seen the west hand but because, not having seen it, as East I'd be scared of missing game more than I'm scared of -200... or even 500.

West might have xx AKJx KQx Jxxx and I will be sorry. He might have x Axxx Axxx Axxx and I will be happy.

Should West raise 4N beyond 5 ♣?

I wouldn't: east is under pressure and west, altho he has an excellent hand, should be happy with game: in these situations, a partnership should have a clear understanding that under pressure, the game bidder should be given a lot of latitude. West should allow East to have overbid at this vulnerability.. if the ♦Q comes down, I missed a indifferent slam... big deal, at least I got to my game.

If east chose to bid a suit over 3♠, I'd go with 4♦ in case of the (unlikely) chance to bid again.... and as west, now I would bid 5: the purity of the hand, and the need to bid games, drives me to it.

While West should cut East a lot of slack when East bids 4N, forcing to game, the same is not true when East bids 4minor: this is NOT forcing, and invites playing a partscore... east tends to be full values for this type of call, and, in that context, West has (just) enough extra to warrant game.

You can see from this analysis that bidding either 4 minor or 4N by east reaches game while avoiding (a possibly making) slam. Thus it is not surprising that I consider it very close between 4minor and 4N.

The reasons I choose the more aggressive 4N is that:

1. 4N assures us of reaching the correct suit.. the suit in which, if we are too high, we are least likely to get hammered in (and may play a trick better: picture west with xx AKJx Axx Axxx: we pitch 3♦ on the ♥, and avoid losing 2 tricks to north's KQxx... heck, if they lead S's stiff ♦, I make 5♣!

2. We are red at imps

3. 4 minor puts way too much load on partner to bid game when its right.. far more load than I want him to have.

[jdonn]

Actually Mike you have convinced me I should bid 4♣, I was being too wimpy. If I was planning on bidding again over 4♠ then of course I'd bid the higher suit, but as I'm only planning on taking one bid I might as well bid the best suit.

I still think 4NT is too much. It's true x Axxx Axxx Axxx is technically a minimum double and a persuasive example on the surface, but it's still far more suitable than most doubles and seems to me like trying to give partner perfect cards. Also (though it wasn't actually the case) there is a severe danger when the opponents bid 2♠ 3♠ of partner also having a doubleton spade, which would make game almost impossible unless partner could double again. In fact holding two spades myself on this auction I think a doubleton is more likely for partner than a singleton. Obviously this does not turn out to be 100% hehe.

So my new recommended auction is 2♠ dbl 3♠ 4♣ p 4♠ p 5♣ ppp. I consider my original suggested auction 2♠ dbl 3♠ p p dbl p 4NT p 5♣ ppp to be conservative but reasonable.

[foo]

Excellent post mikeh.

4N from me as well.