[xx1943]

Scoring: ?

---

Hi all,

this hand came up at a pd-ship-bidding table, when I was teaching and I have no real idea, who to bid 6♥ with standard methods scientificly; without making a shot in the dark. I promissed the Billies to ask here in the forum the experts how they would handle the hand.
Here it is: what do you think is the best approach to 6♥, using standard methods. BBO-adv e.g.

North opens a standard 1NT

First question: Should South treat this hand as 54-major-hand or say: forget these lousy !Hs
If the answer is no, you'll not find the ♥ slam be short in 6♣:
1NT balanced 15-17
2♥ Xfer to ♠
2♠(no 4♠s)
3♣(game-forcing 4-carder)
3♦(Control bid accepting ♣
3♠ another control
4♥ control
6♣

Second question: If you treat the hand as 54-major do you start with stayman?
if yes the bidding would be
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - ????

Third question: what now?
3♠ artificial heart raise with these lousy hearts?
4♥ abandoning slam
3♣ showing 4+♣s; major-4carder
3♣ Repeated stayman, asking opener to clarify his distribution yet more
5♥ asking for trump quality

Fourth question: If you do not start with stayman, you begin with Xfer to ♠ rite?
1NT
2♥
2♠ no superaccept
and now?????????????????

I'm looking forward to see your bidding suggestions, but please don't tell me how superior any strong-club or other artificial system would be on this hand.

Thanks a lot

Sincerly

Al

[mr1303]

This is how I'll bid it:

1NT 2C (Stayman)
2H 4D (splinter agreeing hearts)
4NT (RKCB) 5D (1 or 4)
6H

[xx1943]

mr1303, on May 2 2006, 01:57 PM, said:

This is how I'll bid it:

1NT 2C (Stayman)
2H 4D (splinter agreeing hearts)
4NT (RKCB) 5D (1 or 4)
6H

You would splinter agreeing hearts with this lousy suit not fearing to find partner with
Kx, Axxx, AQx, Axx

[hotShot]

xx1943, on May 2 2006, 01:34 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: All Scoring: ?

♠ K6 ♥ KQJ8 ♦ A82 ♣ AT62 ♠ AQJ97 ♥ T754 ♦   ♣ KQ83

North opens a standard 1NT

Quote

First question: Should South treat this hand as 54-major-hand or say: forget these lousy !Hs
If the answer is no, you'll not find the ♥ slam be short in 6♣:
1NT balanced 15-17
2♥ Xfer to ♠
2♠(no 4♠s)
3♣(game-forcing 4-carder)
3♦(Control bid accepting ♣
3♠ another control
4♥ control
6♣

I don't agree with 3♣, if my partner has minors I itend to play NT. So I'll bid 3♥, if partner sees no ♠ or ♥ fit, he holds the minors and will bid NT. There is plenty of time to show my ♣ then.
1NT balanced 15-17
2♥ Xfer to ♠
2♠(no 4♠s)
3♥(game-forcing 4-carder)
....

Quote

Second question: If you treat the hand as 54-major do you start with stayman?
if yes the bidding would be
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - ????

I treat:
very weak 54 hand as 5M hands with transfer and pass
below game forcing 54 hands with Stayman
strong 54 Hand with transfer followed by a game forcing

Quote

Third question: what now?
3♠ artificial heart raise with these lousy hearts?
4♥ abandoning slam
3♣ showing 4+♣s; major-4carder
3♣ Repeated stayman, asking opener to clarify his distribution yet more
5♥ asking for trump quality

At BBO I choose 3♣, (game)focing accepting ♥. Partner will not pass i can still bid ♠(further forcing).

Quote

Fourth question: If you do not start with stayman, you begin with Xfer to ♠ rite?
1NT
2♥
2♠ no superaccept

See abowe.

[mcphee]

Stayman and after hearing the H response splinter in D. Isn't this exactly the hand type you have where you want to idenitfy your H shortness to help partner in making the best continuation? Over the follow up cue bid from the NT bidder of 3S showing the A or K you simply bid 5C and are happy to have had the right tools to deliver an accurate message.

While you do have poor trumps that is not the problem. This sort of splinter is different than when partner responds 1H to your opening 1 of a minor where holding good trumps can be far more important. I would bid exactly the same way if I had opened 1S and heard partner bid 2H.

[ArcLight]

When I see examples of missed slams, there is always an easy way to have bid it.
-If only you cue bid this suit rather than that suit
- If only you cue bid the King
- If only you bid Stayman rather than Jacoby or Jacoby rather than Stayman
- if only you made a 2/1 rather than a splinter or splintered ratehr than bid a suit
- for pard to cooperate you had to infer he had trump supports
- for pard to cooperate you had to inder he had a 2nd suit
- for pard to cooperate you had to infer pard had good controls, HCP, etc.
... etc ...

When I see examples of slams on 25 points and a perfect fit, it looks so easy. I just played a 4 Club contract making 12 with a combined 23 HCP.


Now ask yourself, how many slams have you gone down in that were "aggressive" (i.e. stupid) and risky? I've gone down in quite a few.
"But pard we had a combined 33 HCP and 2 running 6 card suits."
Too bad we were off 2 at the start. Too bad we had duplicated values, no source of tricks, etc.

Bridge is a percentage game. When bidding slam, frequently not everyone will reach the slam. So you probably need a success rate greater than 50%, rather than trying for some thin slam.

You can have all 12 outside honors and go down because trumps are weak.
You need strong trumps and a trick source.

In the example presented I would certainly use Stayman (Smolen actually, but its BIL so use Stayman) and not a transfer.

I like the 4♦ splinter bid after opener bids 2♥.

Here is the first big question: Since opener has a min of 15 HCP, how strong does the 4♦ hand have to be? For a normal splinter you want at least 13 support points, or 11-15 HCP, or some range like that. What about in this case? Does the splinter hand have a similar strength range? I assume so, because with a weaker hand, opposite a limited partner 15-17), just bid game. Dont stretch for that 23% slam.


Now what? What does it take to make slam?
Opener has solid trumps, a necessary condition so what else is needed?

A source of tricks. With the diamond ace, pard can ruff some diamonds.
No losers there.

Since we are assuming pard has a good hand (lets say 10+ - 15 HCP).

Since we are declaring, the Spade Kx is protected. Assume pard has nothing in Diamonds (or has discounted those values). Whats left? Either Clubs or spade values, and maybe the trump Ace.

I think the conditions are there to look for slam.

What we need is a source of tricks (and the trump ace)

4NT will show us the trump ace, but not the source of tricks.

Pard has not bid Spades, so 4♠ may make him think you have the Ace and confuse him. And worse, he may bid 4NT which doesnt help.

What you need is a running side suit, and pard should have values in both clubs and Spades.

With the trump Ace, and a wasted stiff Q in dimes, pard should still have 5+ HCP, maybe in one suit. With no wasted Q of dimes, then pard should have enough that both minors are solid if theer is a trump loser, or with the trump ace, you have enough in Spades and clubs to make all but 1.

What about cue bidding 5 Clubs?
By bypassing 4S and 4NT you are telling pard you aren't interested in Aces, or trump strength, you are interested in a source of tricks.
At this point pard can see 3+ clubs, and probably 2 dime ruffs. Pards trumps should be good for 3, and you have spade potential as well.

Since pard bid 5♣ his values should be outside diamonds. Assume the Club Ace, and solid trumps, slam looks good.

After 5♣ responder can bid 6♥


1NT - 2C
2H - 4D
5C - 6H

[Codo]

xx1943, on May 2 2006, 08:34 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: All Scoring: ?

♠ K6 ♥ KQJ8 ♦ A82 ♣ AT62 ♠ AQJ97 ♥ T754 ♦   ♣ KQ83

North opens a standard 1NT

First question: Should South treat this hand as 54-major-hand or say: forget these lousy !Hs

No never.if we have a Heart fit, my pd has the good Hearts and I can use my bad ones for ruffing Diamonds.

Quote

Second question: If you treat the hand as 54-major do you start with stayman?
if yes the bidding would be
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - ????

Yes, I would use stayman, hoping to play Smolen.
Now, I surely bid 4 Diamond as a splinter.
1 NT 2 ♣ 2 ♥ 4 ♦ 4 ♠ 5 ♦ 6 ♣ 6 ♥

4 Spade was a cuebid: A splinter is always slam searching opposite a limited hand, else, why use it? So 4 Spade shows a cuebid and a nice hand for a heart slam. (In my opinion, this should be used as KC and void-asking, but this is not the question you raised.) Nothing wasted in Diamonds, good controls. 5 Diamond is Exclusion KC. 6 Club showed 2+ queen.
If pd had Kx, Kxxx, Axxx, AJxx - or more "wasted" Diamond points, he had just bid 4 Heart after the splinter, so I am quite confident, that the Hearts are at worst KJ9x and the slam is still close to 50 %.

Quote

Third question: what now?
3♠ artificial heart raise with these lousy hearts?
4♥ abandoning slam
3♣ showing 4+♣s; major-4carder
3♣ Repeated stayman, asking opener to clarify his distribution yet more
5♥ asking for trump quality

If I must play your methods, I would choose the bid, which gives me the most valuable information, 3 Club or 3 Spade, depending on the answering structures.

Quote

Fourth question: If you do not start with stayman, you begin with Xfer to ♠ rite?
1NT
2♥
2♠ no superaccept
and now?????????????????

If you Xfer with 54 major hands, you should use 3 Heart as natural and 4 card length. So this would be my choice. After 4 Heart, I will ask for good trumps with 5 Heart, but this is not very convincing.

Quote

I'm looking forward to see your bidding suggestions, but please don't tell me how superior any strong-club or other artificial system would be on this hand. 

I would never believe, that strong clubs or any artifical system is better then natural systems, they can just handle some hands better and some hands worse.

[whereagles]

I think it's difficult to bid this one without gadgets like a 1NT-3♦ splinter or something similar.

[coyot]

I see two possible lines. The inferior one first.

1NT-2♥
2♠-3♥
4♥-4♠
5♣-6♥

After transfer, I don't bother with clubs as I am looking for 4-4 major suit to play a game with the spades being used as discards (If partner fails to support either suit, he'll bid 3NT and perhaps 4♣ then would be still considered natural or semi.

When I hear about the heart support, 4♠ must be a cuebid, because we don't want to play 4♠ on trumps 6-2 - that sounds like 4 discards into heart contract. After 5♣ there is the shot in the dark - partner could have red suits reversed.

My favourite is bidding 54 via stayman.
1NT-2♣
2♥-4♦ shortness confirming trumps and showing slam try. I'm fairly sure that partner would respond with 4♠ now (good values) and I could bid 5♦ (showing interest and void). With the ace in hearts, he bids 7, with the ace in diamonds he bids 6).

Possibly after acceptance of the transfer, 2♠ could be used if forcing... and if partner bids 3♣, I'll happily bid 5♦ right now again - but run the risk of finding scattered diamond values and poor hearts and going down.

[Free]

I'd start with a standard stayman followed by a smolen 3♥ bid if it's necessary (I guess this is pretty standard?). Now partner will bid 2♥ which makes me very glad! I have small trumps to ruff, and partner hopefully has some good ♥s to control the suit. ♦ Splinter it is. Now North will probably accept since he doesn't have any lost values there. Now it depends on how you proceed, what kind of RKC you play,...

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 4♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♣ - 5♦
5♠ - 6♥

[inquiry]

In BBO Advanced. a 4♦ splinter says you need a working minimum for slam with nothing wasted opposite the splinter. The fact is, the ♦Ace could be wasted. A better approach with this hand is over 2♥ a jump to 3♠ with agree's hearts as turmps and is a slam try. North will MOST SURELY cooperate.

A possible auction is:

1N - 2C
2H - 3S
4C - 4D
4S - 5H
6H - Pass

3S general slam try
4C, 4D, 4S cue-bids
5H - looking for really good trumps, else blackwood
6H - I got KQJx....

South mioght try 5♣ if thinks 5♥ would be confusing.. same message

[mr1303]

What would you do with a spade splinter after partner bids 2H?

[keylime]

K6
KQJ8
A82
AT62

AQJ97
T754

KQ83


1NT-2C
2H-2S (some treat this as inviting -> I treat it as unconditionally forcing, since to me 3S is a splinter supporting hearts)
2NT-3C
3D-3S

At this point the 1NT hand knows the entire hand, and knows responder is making a mild slam try at every turn. No need to launch into Blackwood here. Cuebids will work VERY nicely here.

nota bene: sorry for disjointed post, am in middle of a long mend here.

[inquiry]

mr1303, on May 2 2006, 09:59 AM, said:

What would you do with a spade splinter after partner bids 2H?

This is one of the flaws, so to speak, in the BBO advanced simple treatment. One could decide to make 2♠ (over 1♥) the GF with ♥ fit and use 3♠ as splinter, but that gives up on 2♠ for other meanings.

I prefer to play Glen Ashton's treatment over 1NT (glen post here as officeglen). This is part of his ETM Victory system. Glen using 1NT-3M to show singleton in the bid major and 4 in the other major, GF. So for me, the hypothetical hand you propose would go

1NT - 3♠. Technically, after bidding 3♠, I have no idea if we have a heart fit or not, but I got the message across just fine. This is but one way to handle such hands, btw, in the ETM vicotry method.

[jdonn]

mr1303, on May 2 2006, 09:59 AM, said:

What would you do with a spade splinter after partner bids 2H?

There is a very common "expert" method in the USA, which I have heard referred to as Eastern Scientific.

After 1NT 2♣ 2M
3otherM: Splinter in any suit, relay to find out which suit.
4♣: Keycard for the bid major.
4♦: Balanced slam invite with fit for the bid major.
4N: Quantitative, four of the other major (no need for it to be keycard).

Maybe it's not perfect just like any convention, but it seems to cover everything very well and I consistently agree it with people, recalling that it has worked fine.

So if you were going the stayman then splinter route on the hand in question, it would go 1NT 2♣ 2♥ 3♠(any splinter) 3NT(where?) 4♦(diamonds), etc.

[keylime]

This is a nice hand for Keri <shhhh, I know I know, wrong forum>

[whereagles]

Well, there is a simple way to get to slam, but it requires responder to think along these lines:

"If there's a slam, it will be either in spades or clubs. A heart slam is too unlikely because it requires opener to have extremely good trumps. Since it's very difficult to find out about that, let's concentrate on trying to find a the spade or club slam."

In this spirit, it might start..

1NT 2♥
2♠ 3♣
3♥ 3♠
4♣ 6♣

3♣ = natural 54, game-forcing. Either showing concern for the red suits or a strong hand.
3♥ = heart stop, asks for a little help with diamonds.
3♠ = no diamond help, but extras in spades (6 cards or a good 5).
4♣ = well, since diamonds are wide open, let's try and play clubs.
6♣ = since there's little diamond wastage, this might make.

I'm not sure if this is biased by seeing both hands, but it's the best I can come up with with natural and simple methods

[mikeh]

I like jdonn's gadget... but I confess I play stayman followed by 3 OM as a slam try in opener's major: usually balanced, but not always.

I would not splinter: I hate splintering in a void.... Axx in partner's hand is usually a very, very good holdng opposite a splinter, while Jxx is not quite as good.... here, Jxx is better for me than Axx, since it leaves more room for cards where I need them: ie trump!

So I would bid

1N  2♣ (intending to smolen)
2♥  3♠


It really does not matter how the auction proceeds: no North with a pulse would stop short of slam with a control rich, trump rich maximum. Indeed, North will be interested in co-operating in a try for grand.

North cannot keycard or jump to 6♥. In the first case, the keycard answer is meaningless in terms of the grand/small decision (not here of course, because N learns of the missing trump A, but imagine S shows a keycard... now what?)

In the second case, jumping to 6 may ruin the chances of reaching a good 7.

So I see the auction continuing:

4♣  4♥
6♥

I would not cue 4♦ as south for two reasons: bidding a void will confuse partner, who will expect 4♦ to deliver the A... if he is looking at KQ, he will get excited... precisely when we want him to be discouraged...and I have already made a slam try with terrible trump... if we belong in slam, partner has to make a move.

6♥ seems clear... partner has a minimum slam try and we have this enormous trump suit and all these controls.


BTW, I chose to smolen, rather than to transfer and show ♣, because I am not driving to slam and 4♥ will sometimes be the best contract: do I really want to reach 3N opposite xx AKQJ Axxx Jxx? or a host of equivalent hands.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on May 2 2006, 12:55 PM, said:

Well, there is a simple way to get to slam, but it requires responder to think along these lines:

"If there's a slam, it will be either in spades or clubs. A heart slam is too unlikely because it requires opener to have extremely good trumps. Since it's very difficult to find out about that, let's concentrate on trying to find a the spade or club slam."

In this spirit, it might start..

1NT 2♥
2♠ 3♣
3♥ 3♠
4♣ 6♣

3♣ = natural 54, game-forcing. Either showing concern for the red suits or a strong hand.
3♥ = heart stop, asks for a little help with diamonds.
3♠ = no diamond help, but extras in spades (6 cards or a good 5).
4♣ = well, since diamonds are wide open, let's try and play clubs.
6♣ = since there's little diamond wastage, this might make.

I'm not sure if this is biased by seeing both hands, but it's the best I can come up with with natural and simple methods

It can't be biased, since on both hands 6♥ is better than 6♣ and worth 2 more imps

I really like your start to the auction. I think splintering for hearts is tainted by knowing both hands, and that it very often leads to disasters to attempt slam auctions on bad suits. Just imagine north's hearts were KQxx leading to a bad slam, or AJxx or Axxx where you could go down at the five level. When I gave a post with methods for splintering here I was just sort of touting the methods, not saying I would actually do that.

Over the 3♥ bid on your suggested auction, why not 5♥? I think that describes your values and direction very well, surely your hand increases in value once partner suggests a diamond weakness, and your hearts would have to be weak for you not to have started with stayman. If anyone says 5♥ should be exclusion keycard for something there, I'll vomit. Over that bid partner may very well bid 6♥ on the actual hand, but if he chooses 6♣ so be it, I won't be too upset.

Alternatively you could raise 3♥ to 4♥ to send a similar message, but I think this hand is just too good on that auction.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on May 2 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

Over the 3♥ bid on your suggested auction, why not 5♥?

I wouldn't do that to pard because even *I* don't know what 5♥ is