[FrancesHinden]

We lost a 48-board match by 5 IMPs on Sunday. We were desperately unlucky, but also didn't play perfectly (hard to believe, I know). It's not very difficult to find hands where you could have done 5 IMPs better, here's one of them:

Scoring: IMP

1♥ P 1♠ 3♦
?

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(You play 5-card majors, strong NT, short club)

[hotShot]

4♣ will give the best description of my hand.

[whereagles]

Yeah, I see nothing wrong with 4♣. Except that pard might take it for some sort of spade raise...

[FrancesHinden]

Partner will not take 4C as a spade raise, I promise.

[mike777]

3H "If I can just get past this round of bidding"

This must be really too offbeat since Frances, a very good player, did not offer it as a choice. I can certainly understand 4clubs here.

1) I hope partner can rebid 4Clubs as natural and not as a heart slam try?
2) I hope I can rebid 4clubs over 3S as natural and not as a spade slam try?
3) I hope I can rebid 4clubs over a 3nt rebid as natural?

[FrancesHinden]

I don't think I can edit the poll options, or I would add 3H for you.

The reason I didn't put it in was that it didn't occur to me: the main problem for me being that it isn't forcing. But if you want to evaluate the hand as not worth forcing to game then 3H is a (the only) possibility.

[hrothgar]

Nasty problem

I lean towards 4♣. natural and forcing.

[luis]

Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.
The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand.

Luis

[jdonn]

4♣ is totally clear, partner will evaluate much better if he knows both your suits.

The reason 3♥ wasn't included is that it's an underbid by the equivalent of about 2 aces, counting shape. That is not an exageration.

[inquiry]

If douible is takeout, and does not even hint of ♠ support, I would consider that bid" Partner knows the vulnerability and type of game as well as I do, and knows I am forcing him to bid at the four level if he has ♣ preference. If double is some kind of value showing thing, then I will try the practical 4♥'s. Don't we all know if we bid 4♣ partner is going to rebid ♠'s, even if 4♣ does not imply somehow ♠ support...after all, partner will have a lot of ♠'s.

Richard probably should be allowed to answer this poll because for him, this hand pattern and type doesn't come up enough to even consider a misiry 3♣ opening bid ( ♦ preempt or ♣/Major two suiter 4 losers or less). I suspect after

3♣-Pass-3♦, ? or
3♣-Pass-3♠, ?

My side would be in a slightly better situation. If RHO passes, I can show ♥/♣ two suiter with three losers, needing ♦ controls. If East ventures a bid, he is either one level higher (if he bids 4♦), or gives me extra steps (with redouble) to define my hand. It will be interesting to see if the misiry gimmick would have helped or hurt on this hand.

[mikeh]

4♣ for me, altho I am not as sure as jdonn that it is 'totally' clear.

It seems to me that the problem may come on the next round.

What would 4♦ by partner mean? I would assume that he has a liking for ♣ and at least 2nd round control of ♣, but if this is a last train situation, we are going to be seriously in doubt. Maybe we can survive... 4♥ 4♠ 5♣ and then 6 with a control, pass without, but 4♥ probably shouldn't be a cue but an offer to play there.

Does he have to bid 5♣ with ALL ♣ raises missing a ♦ control? I think so, but I am not completely (totally) confident that we will be on the same page.

And 4♣ seems to me to be more likely to generate a 4♠ call than would 4♥. Give partner 6=1=3=3 and he'll pass 4♥ but be strongly tempted to bid 4♠.

Having said all of that, I choose 4♣ because I really like this hand and 4♥ seems like an underbid. But I really won't like hearing 4♠.

I fully agree that 3♥ should not be an option... this hand is far too powerful, even allowing for the poor ♦ situation: high card points are not the be-all and end-all of valuation.

[Echognome]

I bid 4♣ too. What happens when LHO bids 5♦? If I bid 4♥ partner has no chance to evaluate our side's assets. I don't think it's difficult to come up with hands where clubs is the correct strain and where we aren't getting rich off of 5♦.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on May 2 2006, 10:45 AM, said:

4♣ for me, altho I am not as sure as jdonn that it is 'totally' clear.

The voting suggests otherwise

I should clarify though. I don't mean to say it's totally clear that this bid will work the best. I mean to say it's totally clear that this bid is most likely to work the best, which makes the bid totally clear to make.

[bid_em_up]

4♣

I fail to see why this is even a problem, unless opener just bid 4♥ and thereby ended up missing slam.

[han]

I agree with jdonn. While it is easy to imagine that 4♥ could work better on a given hand, I can't imagine ever bidding anything but 4♣ on this hand.

[bid_em_up]

luis, on May 2 2006, 10:01 AM, said:

Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.
The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so  I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand.

Luis

Aren't

---

or

---

normal hands? Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one.

No?

Tell me Luis, what am I missing?

[luis]

bid_em_up, on May 2 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

luis, on May 2 2006, 10:01 AM, said:

Close between 4♣ and 4♥ I think I'm going to bid 4♥.
The hand is bad, 2 small diamonds and void in pd's suit, with only 1 or 2 hearts pd won't really know what to do over 5♣ and I'm afraid 11 tricks can be worst than 10 tricks, so  I bid 4♥ showing a strong suit so pd will know he has to pass this with any normal hand.

Luis

Aren't

---

or

---

normal hands? Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one.

No?

Tell me Luis, what am I missing?

You are missing the forest but you did see 2 trees.
You have a slam in the 2 hands you posted, but what is more likely ? That you can make 4♥ or that you have a slam in clubs? And in how many hands will pd bid 4♠ over 4♣ thinking you have a 5-5 hand so his 6 or 7 spades should play well opposite a singleton?
I don't have the answers to those questions but it is my feeling that there are more hands where pd will bid 4♠ over 4♣ than hands where 4♣ will lead you to a club slam. And I have the feeling 4♥ is a solid game in both scenarios and the only way to convince pd that you want to play 4♥ opposite a singleton even when he has 7 spades is bidding 4♥.

Luis

[bid_em_up]

Ok, but personally, i think 4C should imply 6-5 in my two suits (not just 5-5) and partner should attempt to correct to 4H whenever possible instead of bidding 4S, unless his spade suit is playable opposite a likely void. It also allows him to have some input regarding the final contract by evaluating his hand better.

As always, jmoo.

[inquiry]

bid_em_up, on May 2 2006, 12:45 PM, said:

Aren't

♠	Kxxxx
♥	x
♦	Axx
♣	Kxxx

 

---

normal hands?  Seems to me if you bid 4♥ and he passes (which he probably will), you just missed a reasonable slam. At least bidding 4♣, gives him the chance to show a diamond control, if he has one.

No?

Tell me Luis, what am I missing?

Has nothing to do with this what to do on THIS auction, but playing misiry, the bidding with these two hands would be

3C - 3D
3N <<----- three losers, need a ♦ control (king or ace)...

on both of these, now small slam in ♣ is surely to be bid, and north will try to figure out if the ♠ King or heart shortage is useful or not by bidding 4NT (long story). A double of 3♦ should it happen to show a weak hand and diamonds (right) would help the auction as REDBL is harneshed to show strong hands without diamonds as well.

[luis]

bid_em_up, on May 2 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

Ok, but personally, i think 4C should imply 6-5 in my two suits (not just 5-5) and partner should attempt to correct to 4H whenever possible instead of bidding 4S, unless his spade suit is playable opposite a likely void. It also allows him to have some input regarding the final contract by evaluating his hand better.

As always, jmoo.

And when you do have 5-5 what do you do?
It's impossible to think 4♣ shows 6-5 just because you do have 6-5 here :-)