[Helmer]

Hi
This is part of a small question serie.

The result doesn't matter - no matter what I did as declarer would end up in the same result. Its more the law (ethics).

You are declarer - you play from your hand towards dummy.

You play a ♦ - next hand covers - now 4th hand finds a card to play, eventhough its not his turn yet.
You take a small break, you planned to discard a ♥ in dummy, now you changed your plan and you ruffed, as it should be obvious to believe that 4th hand should follow the ♦ suit.

Now - 4th hand - takes the card back into his hand - and he finds another card - a trumph that could over-trumph dummy.

Is this ok?

Yes or No?

(The card wasn't visible to any players)

Comments too please.

[fyrish]

I don't think he should take a card from his hand before it is his turn to play. However I would have thought he can play whatever he likes.

[Free]

I don't know, but I'm really interested to know this once and for all

[FrancesHinden]

It's bad manners to take a card out before you play from dummy, and then change it after you have played from dummy but it's not obviously illegal.

If it was done deliberately to induce you to go wrong in the suit, that is illegal. However, in the scenario you suggest, it's not at all clear that was the case:

You led a diamond, which the next hand beat with a higher diamond. It had been your plan to discard from dummy. Perhaps it was also clear to the other opponent that you had been planning to discard from dummy (I can't tell), so he pulled his discard out ready. You then changed your mind, and so did he.

[barmar]

While that's certainly possible, it's relatively unlikely. Most of the time when declarer leads a suit that dummy is void in, and LHO beats it, the plan is to ruff. Yes, there are times when you can tell that declarer is going to play loser-on-loser to set up a running suit, but I think a player advanced enough to tell when this is happening should also be familiar enough with the proprieties to not pull his card out early.

Law 73D1 says: However, players should be particularly careful in positions in which variations may work to the benefit of their side. And 73F2 says: if the Director determines that an innocent player has drawn a false inference from a remark, manner, tempo, or the like, of an opponent who has no demonstrable bridge reason for the action, and who could have known, at the time of the action, that the action could work to his benefit, the Director shall award an adjusted score (see Law 12C).

In other words, if the player should have known better, he can be punished (unless he frequently pulls his cards out early, so it's not a "variation").

[kenberg]

I voted that it was not OK. Whether or not it is legal, which I don't know, it is not OK to detach a card before your turn to play, and in some circumstances doing so might convey information to a partner. If I am feeling testy I might say something like "Unless you plan on playing the card you have detached regardless of the card I play, please put it back in your hand".

[mcphee]

To coffee house is strictly against the rules. I am not sure of the players habits who dislodge a card from hand prior to dummies play, nor do I care. While the director of some club game may allow this sort of actions in their club, this would never survive a committe. I this is the sort of player who has this bad habit of pulling cards it is about time they learned the ahrd way and have the play reversed on them to his/her disadvantage.

Players who frequently move from card to card in their hand prior to playing are also giving unauthorized information to partners. The real way to give count is to play hi low within your given methods.

[jdonn]

barmar, on May 5 2006, 09:53 AM, said:

While that's certainly possible, it's relatively unlikely.  Most of the time when declarer leads a suit that dummy is void in, and LHO beats it, the plan is to ruff.  Yes, there are times when you can tell that declarer is going to play loser-on-loser to set up a running suit, but I think a player advanced enough to tell when this is happening should also be familiar enough with the proprieties to not pull his card out early.

Law 73D1 says: However, players should be particularly careful in positions in which variations may work to the benefit of their side.   And 73F2 says: if the Director determines that an innocent player has drawn a false inference from a remark, manner, tempo, or the like, of an opponent who has no demonstrable bridge reason for the action, and who could have known, at the time of the action, that the action could work to his benefit, the Director shall award an adjusted score (see Law 12C).

In other words, if the player should have known better, he can be punished (unless he frequently pulls his cards out early, so it's not a "variation").

Or unless he can convince the director of a "demonstrable bridge reason" for his action. That is of course totally subjective, which is I suspect what the laws want. But if he thought he knew what you would play then he may have just innocently (though wrongly) chosen his play, and then changed when you changed.

Keep an open mind about these things. Maybe your opponent is posting on some other forum:
"I was defending and declarer led a diamond toward dummy which my partner covered. Declarer looked to obviously be discarding on this so I chose my discard, but then declarer switched to a trump instead. I think it was very unfair and unethical for declarer to do this, she must have planned on switching her play just to try to find out if I would follow suit or not by seeing if I grabbed a card"

Try to always look at things from the perspective of the other guy

[Helmer]

jdonn, on May 5 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

"I was defending and declarer led a diamond toward dummy which my partner covered. Declarer looked to obviously be discarding on this so I chose my discard, but then declarer switched to a trump instead. I think it was very unfair and unethical for declarer to do this, she must have planned on switching her play just to try to find out if I would follow suit or not by seeing if I grabbed a card"

Try to always look at things from the perspective of the other guy

My point is

why dislodge a card before its your turn?

Is it needed?

[PeterE]

Law 74 B3

Quote

As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
Detaching a card before it is his turn to play.

Since a breach of the proprieties in an infraction since 1997 you can hang East for this (in combination with Law 73 F2 - see above).

[jdonn]

PeterE, on May 5 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

Law 74 B3

Quote

As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
Detaching a card before it is his turn to play.

Since a breach of the proprieties in an infraction since 1997 you can hang East for this (in combination with Law 73 F2 - see above).

Now we are (metaphorically) HANGING players for breaching a "matter of courtesy"??? What is the world coming to! I'm beginning to get frightened to leave my bed in the morning.

Law 74 B1 states "As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
Paying insufficient attention to the game.", so the next time your opponent miscounts trumps, make sure to hang him as well.

This is the litigious attitude about the GAME (my emphasis) that has been driving people away for decades and will continue to do so.


And to responder to you Helmer, of course there is no reason for your opponent to do that, but so what. It was probably a completely innocent action that your opponent wasn't thinking about at all and had no idea could damage you. I know there are slimeballs out there, but for every one of them there are a lot more innocent people just trying to have fun, and not worrying that every minor potential breach of courtesy will earn them a hanging. Besides, the slimeballs quickly earn appropriate reputations and we then know who they are.

[Al_U_Card]

Did declarer also "hitch" when he changed his mind, or was he ruminating about what to do or was he trying to determine if 4th hand was paying attention (ruff or discard) or not (follow suit). Perhaps the fault lies with declarer as much, if not more, than 4th hand if the coffee-housing was rampant.

[Helmer]

Al_U_Card, on May 5 2006, 01:38 PM, said:

Did declarer also "hitch" when he changed his mind, or was he ruminating about what to do or was he trying to determine if 4th hand was paying attention (ruff or discard) or not (follow suit). Perhaps the fault lies with declarer as much, if not more, than 4th hand if the coffee-housing was rampant.

HI
Well thanks for THAT comment.

I planed before playing from my hand - to throw a ♥.
But because of the card that was ready to be played from 4th hand
I changed my mind.

My point is - said in another way than before,
is it ok to have a card ready or not?

Law 74B3:
As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
Detaching a card before it is his turn to play.

That answer my question quite clear.

And about driving people away - maybe at your place.
There are nice ways to call a tournament director and there are
certainly also bad ways. Should people who care about ethics
be driven away too ?

[han]

I agree with Josh, in that pulling the card is not correct, but the player who did it was probably not trying to do any harm. Most I would do is to point out that this is not the expected behavior at duplicate bridge.

[barmar]

jdonn, on May 5 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

Keep an open mind about these things. Maybe your opponent is posting on some other forum:
"I was defending and declarer led a diamond toward dummy which my partner covered. Declarer looked to obviously be discarding on this so I chose my discard, but then declarer switched to a trump instead. I think it was very unfair and unethical for declarer to do this, she must have planned on switching her play just to try to find out if I would follow suit or not by seeing if I grabbed a card"

Try to always look at things from the perspective of the other guy

How could declarer "looked to obviously be discarding"? Was she staring at the card he planned on discarding from dummy?

Quote

I agree with Josh, in that pulling the card is not correct, but the player who did it was probably not trying to do any harm. Most I would do is to point out that this is not the expected behavior at duplicate bridge.

This is why I made reference to the experience level of the player. A good player should know that doing this is likely to cause declarer to misjudge, and the law says you must try not to vary your manner when you could know that it will influence an opponent.

[Al_U_Card]

Helmer, on May 5 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on May 5 2006, 01:38 PM, said:

Did declarer also "hitch" when he changed his mind, or was he ruminating about what to do or was he trying to determine if 4th hand was paying attention (ruff or discard) or not (follow suit).  Perhaps the fault lies with declarer as much, if not more, than 4th hand if the coffee-housing was rampant.

HI
Well thanks for THAT comment.

I planed before playing from my hand - to throw a ♥.
But because of the card that was ready to be played from 4th hand
I changed my mind.

Hardly the point. Everyone will have their own point of view. The famous "he took a minute before doubling" vs. "I took exactly the 10 seconds required by the skip bid even though he put the stop card back right away."

btw, when I want to call the director (f2f of course) I say to the opp who has required the call, in a very polite tone, "I am going to make a director call." and then I raise my hand as I turn away from the table to clearly say "Director!" only loudly enough to be heard by the director.

[cheech]

Helmer, on May 5 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on May 5 2006, 01:38 PM, said:

Did declarer also "hitch" when he changed his mind, or was he ruminating about what to do or was he trying to determine if 4th hand was paying attention (ruff or discard) or not (follow suit).  Perhaps the fault lies with declarer as much, if not more, than 4th hand if the coffee-housing was rampant.

HI
Well thanks for THAT comment.

I planed before playing from my hand - to throw a ♥.
But because of the card that was ready to be played from 4th hand
I changed my mind.

My point is - said in another way than before,
is it ok to have a card ready or not?

Law 74B3:
As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from:
Detaching a card before it is his turn to play.

That answer my question quite clear.

And about driving people away - maybe at your place.
There are nice ways to call a tournament director and there are
certainly also bad ways. Should people who care about ethics
be driven away too ?

the relevant rules here seem to be (and i don't have a rulebook to hand, so i'm paraphrasing) "players must not vary there tempo or manner when they have reason to believe it ight benefit their side" and "players are free to draw inferences fro opponents devitaions at their own risk". It seems clear to me that declarer falls foul of the second ruling, while i see no reason to believe the defender falls foul of the first. The defender took a card out, intending to play it, but changed their mind when they saw declarer's card. Taking a card out of your hand, intending to play it may be against the rules (i've heard a professional bridge player criticise his (client) partner for doing so before), but if it is, it is against the rules regardless of whether that player goes on to play that card or not, and if declarer had no objection to the defender doing this (in fact, decided to use it to what he believed was his advantage), i fail to see how changing the card can be objectionable. Declarer chose a particular line of play based on his opponent's manner, which he is well within his rights to do, but if his opponent has accidentally led him astray (with no reason to believe that this could result fro his action), then he must take his lumps - people are allowed to intend to do one thing, then change their ind, and do soething else - declarer did it, and apparently so did the defender. Possible UI issues with regards to partner are an entirely separate issue