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Leaving the forums goodbye

#81 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 12:50

rona_, on May 2 2006, 12:43 PM, said:

Posted: May 1 2006, 07:41 PM
Al_U_Card

Quote


And they're off! Just what we needed, another reason to debate endlessly about personal areas that the debate cannot possibly resolve. Post or don't as you please. Rain is brilliant in her functions and I support her decision 100%. Case closed for me.


And you went ahead and posted another eight times after this. :)

As John Lennon sang (or rather spoke)....Number 9....Number 9....Number 9

It was more of a prediction that a disclaimer....roflmao
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#82 User is offline   jocdelevat 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 12:56

Hi all
I think this discussion went far enough and we should put a stop.

My opinions:
1. Delete the whole thread discussion and forget about it
2. Call Dr. Phil and Judge Judy if #1 is not good enough:))
3. BBO should have a disclaimer or a better policy


Best regards
Jocdelevat
It's not what you are, it's how you say it!

best regards
jocdelevat
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#83 User is offline   Sigi_BC84 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 12:59

Brandal, on May 2 2006, 07:21 PM, said:

Sigi_BC84, on May 2 2006, 12:56 PM, said:

Without Justin's angry "good-bye" message we would have never gotten to the bottom of this.

A bunch of people taking sides,and a few in the middle
is getting to the bottom of it?

I was simply talking about the reasons Rain had for deleting the posts. She did not explain why, but in this thread it came to light. There is not much more to it, really -- the moderator could have been a bit more careful and Justin could have been a bit less emotional. No big deal to me.

I'm now reading the website that Justin was about to link. In a way, this entire thread was the best ad for the site you could imagine.

--Sigi
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#84 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 13:16

It seems to me that we have to distinguish between ridiculing a member (or non-member... I don't think it should matter) on the one hand and evaluating posts on the other.

I did not read any of Justin's original posts but I understood that it began with his posting of a link to a webpage which has, as a small portion of its content, a series of entries which clearly depict a BBO (and/or an OkBridge) member in a very poor light.

I do not know the extent, if any, to which Justin's reference to this website was intended or could be reasonably perceived as intending to draw attention to that portion of the site: I gather and accept that Justin did not personally intend to make that particular topic the focus of the link, but it might reasonably be perceived by others as such. And while I accept that the offending area is only a small part of the site, it is readily findable and, in itself, quite substantial. It is also, if I may express an opinion on it, quite funny is a perhaps unfortunate way.... also quite sad, in more or less the same way. Laughing at the behaviour exhibited (assuming the posts to be an accurate tale) is a guilty pleasure.

I can very easily see why the subject of that part of the site felt targeted: and a visit to that individual's own website makes it clear that he feels that he has been persecuted.

More importantly, I recognize that zero tolerance must be the rule for this forum: otherwise, as Fred's post makes clear, the forum could degenerate into censorship based solely in the extent to which an individual offends those in charge. The slippery slope argument is valid in my view.

It is the extreme cases that test our dedication to such zero tolerance approaches. I have personally witnessed some of the conduct of the 'target': I was once actually invited by him to express a view on a topic he was teaching in one of his classes.... his approach was unorthodox and, more importantly, he was dismissive of the orthodox approach without even admitting that his view was unusual (a gamblng 3N opening on a 6 card suit) I have watched him play a number of hands, altho the 'pleasure' soon palled. I was, at the time, one of those who, in kib mode, and never so that any player or he could hear it, made sarcastic remarks.. for which I am sorry. The truth is that if ever anyone set themselves up as a target, he did... with claims to a skill level that was remarkable for its lack of insight... and I say this in the context of an online community in which self-ranking has run wild.

But the point has to be that a public forum cannot directly or indirectly condone OR BE SEEN EVEN BY A SMALL MINORITY OF READERS to condone any suggestion of a campaign to humiliate any one, member or non-member.

So the link was properly (imo) removed: could it have been handled by a simple deletion, with or without a note and with or without a private email to Justin (which may have been done for all I know)? Yes, and that topic is a legitimate topic for users of this forum to debate... how would we want our troublesome posts dealt with?

And I write this aware that passages of this post could be construed as potentially adding to the troubles of the 'target', altho I hope that I have made it clear that I feel sorry for him....while his teachings and claims to expertise are deserving, in my view, of strong criticism, he personally does not deserve to be humiliated before the world.

I may get my first warning or even have part or all of this deleted :)
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#85 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-May-02, 13:59

I've gained a little bit of perspective in the last day. Some thoughts...

I have talked to Rain. She assumed when I posted the website that my intent was or likely was to draw attention to the certain "offensive" section. This is because that member very recently started attacking me for my post on RGB (which told one of his harassers to move on and stop posting about him). I even reported him to abuse for this. Because of the timing of that event as well as my history with the member, it wasn't a far leap to think I might be taking a subtle jab at that person.

Honestly, when I posted the link I didn't even think about the offensive section. It has been defunct for years, and I don't even think about the person who it was targetted at. Despite the altercation, I really thought nothing of it. Aaron Haspel is perhaps my closest friend in the world. I also think he is a great author, and he has helped me tremendously. I really enjoy reading his stuff so when I saw a post asking for favorite non-bridge blogs I just posted his link thinking nothing of it.

When I saw my post was deleted, I responded poorly. I was hurt by the implication that I was trolling. It was a rational assumption (which I failed to realize at the time) but I felt that perhaps I deserved the benefit of the doubt. Maybe this was wrong to feel, but I have put a lot into these forums (and gotten even more back), and that's why I felt that way. Not only this, I was upset in the manner in which it was done which made it look like I had been trolling and was a poor reflection on me.

Upon reflection, while I don't agree with Rain's decision I should have given HER the benefit of the doubt that she had a good reason for doing what she did. It still didn't click to me that I had recently had an incident with the member, and I felt like I was being targetted as was Aaron. Of course, Rain is not vindictive and a private message would have been more appropriate. When I said that I would leave if my post was deleted, I meant it but I didn't state it well. What I meant was, I would not want to take part in a forum where any post I make that I feel is not remotely offensive could be construed that way and deleted despite any argument I make against this. I do not fault BBO or Rain for this, I just don't like the system and feel it would be best if I were to post somewhere like RGB or my blog. I agree with the posters who say it doesn't matter whether I agree with the deletion or not, the moderators decisions must be respected.

I have been called childish, an attention-whore (roughly), and an arrogant youth for making this thread. I made the thread because there were three deleted posts of mine saying I had posted inappropriate content. I wanted to state my side of the story. I could have used a much better tone and not made comments that implied rain was doing a bad job. I am glad that people at least know what happened. That being said, I can definitely be childish, and I have certainly bid known to be arrogant. I don't shy away from attention either. I think it is remarkable that anyone would say things like that about me because of my original post and I think it speaks worlds about the character of those who said it. If those posters are so mature and wise they would likely know that saying such things adds nothing to the conversation, and that if they didn't care about the topic they would either not post or say something relevant. If the intent was simply to hurt or attack me, that is very sad indeed.

Everyone is entitled to their say though.
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#86 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 14:21

Jlall, on May 2 2006, 02:59 PM, said:

I've gained a little bit of perspective in the last day. Some thoughts...

I have talked to Rain. She assumed when I posted the website that my intent was or likely was to draw attention to the certain "offensive" section. This is because that member very recently started attacking me for my post on RGB (which told one of his harassers to move on and stop posting about him). I even reported him to abuse for this. Because of the timing of that event as well as my history with the member, it wasn't a far leap to think I might be taking a subtle jab at that person.

Well said justin, and I might add, my comments on this unfortunate stream of events included a parragph on the same topic... were I said...

inquiry May 1 2006, on 03:26 PM, said:

And let me add, there are additional behind the scenes issues that rain is dealing with concerning some of the principles involved here that makes the timing of Justin's post, unfortunate. This timing could easly give the appearance that there were extenuating circumstances that lead to the both the post being posted and the thead being edited. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.


Pehaps instead of "nothing is as every as simple as it seems, I should have quoted the Billy Joel's song. "shade of grey"... There is a song about shades of grey, that goes something like this...

"Some things were perfectly clear, seen with the vision of youth
No doubts and nothing to fear, I claimed the corner on truth
These days it's harder to say I know what I'm fighting for"
--Ben--

#87 User is offline   Brandal 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 15:29

Jlall, on May 2 2006, 02:59 PM, said:

Everyone is entitled to their say though.

Glad you're back,no doubt your contributions in general
are much appreciated here Justin

:)
"Never argue with fools, they'll drag you down to their level, and then, beat you with experience"
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#88 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 16:26

Good thing George W. Bush isnt a member :)
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#89 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 17:09

Al_U_Card, on May 2 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

I don't believe I even implied such a thing. [justin's miscreantcy, if that's a word]  If that was your inference, sorry.

well i think it's safe to say that you did imply *something* along those lines when you wrote,

"Keeping the riff-raff out will only improve the situation as those miscreants will either toe-the-line or leave, and good riddance to those that do."

what riff-raff to whom you would wish good riddance were they to leave did you have in mind?

brandal said:

the way I read it he "attacked" Rain.

this isn't the first time someone has accused justin of attacking rain... please show me where this happened or have the decency to retract it

fred said:

So if you happen to disagree with a particular decision we make, please try to have a little sympathy for the position we are in before condemning our the actions that we decide to take.

sounds reasonable to me
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#90 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 17:18

Btw, Justin, just want you to know when I speak of "the arrogance of youth" I do not mean it in any way critical; It only seems to me that a degree of arrogance is a natural part of youth.

Winston
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#91 User is offline   Sigi_BC84 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 17:29

Winstonm, on May 3 2006, 12:18 AM, said:

Btw, Justin, just want you to know when I speak of "the arrogance of youth" I do not mean it in any way critical; It only seems to me that a degree of arrogance is a natural part of youth.

Winston

That's true and I think it's safe to say that Justin comes across way mature for a 19 year old! (and not that arrogant at all -- we're all losing it sometimes and this is an emotional issue for Justin after all)

--Sigi
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#92 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 17:37

frankly, i'd prefer to (once again) be young enough to be arrogant... even so, i think winston might be a little offended if, in a thread about him, someone referred to the narrow-minded stoginess of old age ;)
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#93 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 17:53

I only hope Justin took it the right way. We've met in person and played each other and I know he knows I like him. I also know that I was "way arrogant" at 19 and nowhere near as mature as Justin.

Old? Did you call me old, Jimmy????

DIRECTOR!!!

;) :P :P :P
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#94 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-May-02, 18:14

Bla-bla-bla - glad to see everyones all touchy-feely again.

Can we get back to the topic of BRIDGE? I got a star to earn and a national to win already ;)
"Phil" on BBO
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#95 User is offline   Brandal 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 02:15

luke warm, on May 2 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

brandal said:

the way I read it he "attacked" Rain.

this isn't the first time someone has accused justin of attacking rain... please show me where this happened or have the decency to retract it

Don't accuse me of accusing Justin,show me where
I accused him,not this where I stated how I read his
post,or have the decency to retract it

;)
"Never argue with fools, they'll drag you down to their level, and then, beat you with experience"
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#96 User is offline   nickf 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 03:18

inquiry, on May 3 2006, 04:24 AM, said:

<snip>

Let me give an example, there was a thread within this very form on an "unnatural" sex act that was crime in an Asian country.

<snip>

Unnatural? We're not in Kansas now Dorothy.

nickf
sydney
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#97 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 04:38

Brandal, on May 3 2006, 03:15 AM, said:

luke warm, on May 2 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

brandal said:

the way I read it he "attacked" Rain.

this isn't the first time someone has accused justin of attacking rain... please show me where this happened or have the decency to retract it

Don't accuse me of accusing Justin,show me where
I accused him,not this where I stated how I read his
post,or have the decency to retract it

:rolleyes:

sophistry... the phrase "... he attacked rain" is an accusation...
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#98 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 05:07

luke warm, on May 3 2006, 10:38 AM, said:

Brandal, on May 3 2006, 03:15 AM, said:

luke warm, on May 2 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

brandal said:

the way I read it he "attacked" Rain.

this isn't the first time someone has accused justin of attacking rain... please show me where this happened or have the decency to retract it

Don't accuse me of accusing Justin,show me where
I accused him,not this where I stated how I read his
post,or have the decency to retract it

:rolleyes:

sophistry... the phrase "... he attacked rain" is an accusation...

Sorry to stick in here...

But if Brandal's is an accusation, Justin's post too is an attack to Rain (still making use of sophistry)...

Justin was simply plain wrong to post the complaint about Rain and all the moderation procedure.
We can forgive him because of his age, but the tone was plain angry and bitter and aggressive...

I do do think Justin is a cool guy, passionate for bridge and eager to share his golden suggestions with our community: I will never be able to thank him enough for this.


But this time, IMO, he went plain wrong: I can understand forgiving posts, but not supportive posts for that reaction.

Just because I like someone, it does not mean I will support him when he does something i feel wrong...
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#99 User is offline   Brandal 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 06:24

luke warm, on May 3 2006, 05:38 AM, said:

Brandal, on May 3 2006, 03:15 AM, said:

luke warm, on May 2 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

brandal said:

the way I read it he "attacked" Rain.

this isn't the first time someone has accused justin of attacking rain... please show me where this happened or have the decency to retract it

Don't accuse me of accusing Justin,show me where
I accused him,not this where I stated how I read his
post,or have the decency to retract it

:rolleyes:

sophistry... the phrase "... he attacked rain" is an accusation...

If you say so

It wasn't meant as an accusation
"Never argue with fools, they'll drag you down to their level, and then, beat you with experience"
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#100 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2006-May-03, 10:49

luke warm, on May 2 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on May 2 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

I don't believe I even implied such a thing. [justin's miscreantcy, if that's a word]  If that was your inference, sorry.

well i think it's safe to say that you did imply *something* along those lines when you wrote,

"Keeping the riff-raff out will only improve the situation as those miscreants will either toe-the-line or leave, and good riddance to those that do."

what riff-raff to whom you would wish good riddance were they to leave did you have in mind?

Not being shy about speaking my mind, the statement was very direct and to the point. Miscreants (villains, evil-doers or from the old french mécreants meaning wrong thinkers or heretics) MUST be removed or accept correction to remain. Just part of the rules. Justin's "self-imposed hiatus" of whatever length was not forced so he does not qualify under the above terms.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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