[kenrexford]

Scoring: IMP

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You open, at IMP's, red-on-white, 1♠. Partner bids a forcing 1NT (2/1 GF), and your RHO intervenes with 3♣. What action you you take?

In answering, feel free to define what each alternative suggests.

BTW, there was massive disagreement among extremely talented players.

As a secondary problem, assume that the "solution" is to bid 3H. Even if you object, assume this anyway for Part II. What would 4♣ by responder mean after 1♠-P-1NT-3♣-3♥-P-??? What would 3♠ in that auction, instead of 4♣, show???

[mike777]

Pass

For me 1nt could be quite a wide range of hcp so I would pass 3Clubs, but I do tend to underbid in these auctions. At least with pass P will think I have minimum hcp and shortish clubs.

2) I would take 4 clubs as forward going in Hearts and 3S as competitive, to play.

[Codo]

I love neg. doubles. So I would X, simple

[P_Marlowe]

3H.

Dbl is out, it should show a stronger hand,
and I cant bring myself to Pass, so 3H it is.

4C after 3H is a slam move agreeing
Hearts, 4S shows the strong spade raise,
3S being a simple preference.

Pf course it depends on the option included
in the 1NT response, if 13-15 bal. with 3 card
spade fit is an option, 4C could also be based
on a spade fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Mark me down as a pass...

In theory, partner's forcing NT could have been made on a variety of different hand types:

1. A weak single suited hand with primary Diamonds
2. A weak single suited hand with primary Hearts
3. A weak single suited hand with primary Clubs (It could happen)
4. A weak raise to 2S
5. A limit raise in Spades
6. An invite to 2N
7. A few "weird" strong hands.

Starting with a pass will permit partner to clarify his hand type with much more accuracy than if I bid 3♥/3♠. If partner re-enters the auction, I'll be very well positioned to advance. To me, the major risk is that I'm passing with Club shortage. There are going to be hands where partner will pass, we can't set 3♣, and we could make 3♠. However, if I am red at IMPs I prefer to maximize my chances to get to the correct game.

[whereagles]

hrothgar said it all: pass.

At matchpoints I might be tempted to double, in case it's our hand. But at imps pass is clear.

[JohnnyH7]

Sorry, but hrothgar didn't really say it all.

He forgot the very likely

8. balanced hands less than invite
9. 3 suited hand
10. 2 suited hand.
11. invitational 1 suiters.

Among balanced hands we have those that include hearts, those that don't.

The invitational 1 suiters don't matter much directly as partner can bid 3x if he has one, but they matter indirectly if he has a weakish hand with a 1 suiter (does he also balance with 3x? How do we know his strength).

This hand is very complex. If we pass, realistically it will usually go all pass given our void. If partner has any kind of balanced hand he will usually pass unless he has about 11 and is willing to gamble out 3N. If partner has a red 2 suiter he will X back in which is fine, if he has a 3 card limit he'll bid 3S. If he has a 3 suiter or 2 suiter that includes C+Red he will pass. If he has a 1 suiter that is weak and also has some kind of club holding (not unlikely) he will probably just defend.

However, if we bid partner will expect more AND we can't get our shape right. 3H would usually suggest 5-5. Our best bid with this shape is probably double except that I would fear partner sitting for it when I have this hand as my X shows more in the way of values. If we make exactly 3 of something and they make 3C, we can simply never get to the 3 level by bidding. Partner will raise us to game.

If we pass, we may miss a game (usually in hearts). I think I would go with 3H. The risk isn't overwhelming, if we don't get Xed and we end up going down I really doubt that we will be converting a plus into a minus (3C going down and us going down is unlikely given our hand...at worst it will be a minus into a bigger minus). Getting Xed will be our main risk. This way at least we wont defend 3C cold for 4H.

[mikeh]

I would add to hrothgar's catalogue of hand-types an entire family of intermediate strength hands: anything less than a gf: so I would strongly disagree that the majority of his hands will be 'weak': however, maybe we are arguing semantics more than bridge.

In any event, pass seems clear to me.

It is possible to construct many hands on which pass is poor, and on which a 3♥ bid will lead to a great game. However, 3♥ sure sounds like a different hand than the one I am looking at.

When faced with this kind of decision, my belief is that it is useful to imagine that you are responder, and that you have heard partner open 1♠ and then volunteer 3♥. Picture the hand types you would expect: I doubt that this hand would be one of them. While 3♥is not forcing (as it would have been absent the overcall), it sure sounds forward-going. I would expect a decent 5-5 or better: give me the same hand with an extra ♥: AKxxxx K10xxx xx void, and 3♥ is perfect. That extra ♥, on a non-fit auction, is the equivalent of an extra Ace or King: it is a full trick.

Pass followed by 3♥ over a double by partner (which is card showing, not pure penalty) seems the correct description.

Had I bid 3♥, and I understand the impulse to do so, 4♣ is a slam try, ostensibly agreeing ♥. I would scurry to 4♥ as quickly as possible.

[Codo]

I do not understand, that opening hands can be too weak for a neg. double.
You have a 6430 shape, with two quick tricks maybe a heart trick and an easy lead.
If you decide, that your hand is weak (and it is not jmoo), bid pass or 2 Spade in the first round.
What do you need more to double?

[mike777]

I must admit we Interm. level players would not think x in this position is negative or takeout.

[han]

Pass seems clear to me, this is not close to a 3H call.

[jdonn]

I would overbid with 3♥. I think it's too important to get to a decent strain, even if it involves overbidding. I realize this essentially commits us to either 3♠ or game, but a huge factor is that nonvul opponents save over vul games way too often, and I expect them to save me a great big bunch of the time that it was wrong for me to bid.

[pclayton]

3♥ doesn't guarantee a jump shift. A useful tool is that it shows a 2 1/2 heart call.

OK, I have a 10 count. But what a 10 count AK opposite presumed shortness! 5 losers, a void in righty's - whats not to like?

What was our plan before the preempt? I would think this hand is good enough for 2♥, followed by 3♠ (forcing) over 2N.

Has the club void improved out hand? Immensely, although I am a little concerned with this hand getting tapped in our 4-4 fit.

Oddly, I'm torn between 3♥ and 3♠; but hearts is such an appealing strain.

[mike777]

It does seem if one is going bid something over 3clubs that 3s is best in case of taps.

[joshs]

Mark me down as a passer and I don't even think its close. Some people seem to think this hand is worth a 2.5 heart call, and thus 3 isn't such a stretch. I think this is a 1.5 heart hand, and you will get too high (and maybe in the wrong strain) by bidding here. If partner is still interested in game, he can x or bid. With a balanced hand, and transferable values he should x even without shortage here. But with primarily defensive values and length in there suit he should just pass it out.

I also think a 3H call here should be a 5 card suit with very very rare exceptions, and this suit/hand isn't one of them.

[awm]

Well I would've passed this hand in first seat, especially playing two-over-one. I will not be particularly happy if partner bids 2♣ forcing to game over my opening, will I? Sure this is a good hand if we have a fit and partner has little wasted, but an initial pass doesn't mean we can't reach game later.

Having opened, over 3♣ I'll double for takeout. Basically:

Pass is possible, but we could easily have game in hearts, or partner could have a big stack of clubs. This hand is not awful defensively if partner has spade shortness. My double can also help partner evaluate what to do with a spade limit raise (likely pass with a lot of club wastage and bid game without).

Double is the normal bid with club shortness and four-card hearts. The main reason not to double is the wish that I hadn't opened, but I don't think partner will be well-placed if I pass. What does partner do with the balanced invite (probably most likely hand pattern)? I surely don't want to hear 3nt.

3♥ should usually be 5-5, or occasionally a very strong hand with too many clubs to double. 3♠ should show a better hand than this.

[jdonn]

If you pass, what does partner do with - Qxxxxx xxx xxxx? Even if he does infer some heart support from his own club length (a very dubious assumption, you can be 6142?) he would never bid with this hand, because he knows you would think he had a better hand and overbid beyond whatever you can actually make. The fact that partner can't really be this weak if 3♣ comes back to him is not relevent.

I don't try to make a living by coming up with excuses to avoid vulnerable games on auctions where game might make on VERY few values but we have to guess. Heck, xx Axxxxx x xxxx is on a 3-2 and a 2-1 break for SLAM, and I do believe anyone who passes here is about to defend some amount of clubs.

[cherdano]

mikeh, on Apr 24 2006, 05:16 PM, said:

Pass followed by 3♥ over a double by partner (which is card showing, not pure penalty) seems the correct description.

With pretty much all my partners, his double of 3♣ would be takeout. Which means that he will very often be badly placed when I pass.

I am not sure it is best, but that's one of the reasons why I chose double. It certainly comes closest to describing my shape, and most likely to get us to the right strain. After 3♥, I think partner is allowed to raise with 3card support, which could be a disaster (club forces). Double is an overbid, but I will be ok if partner takes it out. If he passes, I will be sweating.

Arend

[mike777]

Opening style can, as usual, have alot to do with this hand.

1) I am very surprised many play x here as takeout, wow, ya 3nt could be bid with clubs but still I would think you would want x as penalty here, but I guess not.
2) If you open on junk, then this hand might rate as extra's and I can understand a 3S bid here rather than pass. This would assume that 1nt may often be up to 12-13 hcp hands.

[luke warm]

mike777, on Apr 24 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

I must admit we Interm. level players would not think x in this position is negative or takeout.

agree