[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

3♦ - ?

---

Well, it's not often you have 7 quick tricks for partner. But you have no fit.

What's your bidding plan?

[Codo]

My pd is first hand red, so he has something. I simple bid 3 NT and hope for the clubs to run, a good heart or AK of D from pd.

[whereagles]

How on earth am I supposed to bid here if you don't tell me pard's style?

If pard is solid: 4NT, followed by 5 or 6♦.
If pard is me: pass!

[Echognome]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 10:21 AM, said:

How on earth am I supposed to bid here if you don't tell me pard's style?

If pard is solid: 4NT, followed by 5 or 6♦.
If pard is me: pass!

I can sympathise with this viewpoint entirely.

Not surprisingly, this hand was played at two tables in an online team match: one a regular partnership and the other a pickup partnership. Both Norths opened 3♦ and from there the auctions diverged. I can say that the auction at my table was more successful, but I don't think either side was in the best contract.

So if you like, what would you bid playing with your regular partner? How do you judge the hand.

Btw, if I am passing 3♦ playing with you, then you are not only bidding my values with the preempt, but you are bidding LHO's and RHO's as well.

[tonedown]

Seeing as we bid preempts "no K or A beside", Red on Green i'd bid 6D, trusting my partner to have at least KQJxxxx.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I think, you should make a move,
red vs. green, 3D should promise
at most -2, i.e. you have the tricks
for 6/7.
Red vs. green partner will also hold
a 7 card suit, at least in 9 out of 10.

It would be great, if you could ask for
Key cards with 4C, since this will tell
you about AKQ in diamond, but with
AKQxxxx he would have opened 3NT?

=> 6D

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hotShot]

I bid 6♦.

I have 7 top tricks and that is enough to cover all of partners looser outside of ♦. If he has more than one, so be it. But i won't give opps a change to make a lead directing double or help them to find a lead or a defence.

If partner is known to open very weak, i might reduce that to 5♦.

[whereagles]

Echo:

> So if you like, what would you bid playing with your regular partner?
> How do you judge the hand.

You bid with precision here, you have to have some gadget that asks this: "pard, how does your suit play opposite a singleton or void?" I don't think any partnership in the world plays such a gadget

Being so, I guess it kinda reduces to pure luck. Luck that pard has, or not, a 1-loser suit. There is, of course, the guideline that pard is at 'red'.. that hints at a decent suit, so I guess 4NT+5/6♦ is probably the percentage play. Also, one should bear in mind that a 4NT response is probably what's happening at the other table as well, so bid that if you want to match their result.

Curiously, natural methods could work well here: bid 4♣ (nat or fit+control).. not if pard rebids his diamonds, he probably has the 1-loser suit and 6 is a good bet.


> Btw, if I am passing 3♦ playing with you, then you are not only bidding my values with
> the preempt, but you are bidding LHO's and RHO's as well.

But you don't know that when you decide to open

[mikeh]

I use what I think is a fairly common approach in NA (and elsewhere?): 4♣ over a 3-level prempt is keycard (4♦ over 3♣).

It is difficult to see how he could have a red 1st seat preempt with 3 trump losers, so we are going to game, but I want (as does everyone else) to find out if slam is biddable. BTW, I don't use 3N for solid minor openings, and I suspect that fewer and fewer readers of this forum do, after some of the excellent points made against that convention. So my partner could have AKQxxxx in 1st seat...I would not want him passing with that hand nor opening 1 or 2♦. And even if I felt that such a hand should blast beyond 3N (I don't), I usually use 4minor as a conventional opening.

Now here is a wrinkle I have never seen: can I get him to appreciate that AKQxxx should stay in 6 while AKQxxxx should bid grand (I'll correct to 7N)?

I can get a 2 keycards with the Q response: should I then 'ask for Kings' to tell him we have all the keycards.... the method one uses in ordinary keycard auctions to invite 7 if partner holds extra tricks? He cannot hold a side King, so is there a risk of misunderstanding here?

If I could not use 4♣, I'd use 4N and play 5 opposite 1 keycard and 6 opposite 2 without the Q. I'll miss a slam opposite AQJxxxx but also opposite KQ987xx.

[jdonn]

I always play 4♣ is keycard over 2 and 3 level preempts (4♦ over 3♣), with responses 0-1-1wQ-2-2wQ. I will use that here and play 6♦ opposite one with the queen or better, taking my chances that either partner has the jack or we get a little lucky. Opposite 1 without the queen I will bid 5♦. Opposite 0 (is that possible vul/nv?) I will bid 4NT, playing partner for maybe xxx KQ QJxxxxx x I guess, not that that is a 3♦ opener at these colors.

If partner shows AKQ of diamond I will bid 5NT. I can't logically want to play there opposite the best possible response, and there is no way I can also want a king on the side, so I think this asks for solid trumps for a grand.

[bid_em_up]

Just curious, if partner shows AKQ♦, why didnt he open 3N?

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Apr 19 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I don't use 3N for solid minor openings, and I suspect that fewer and fewer readers of this forum do, after some of the excellent points made against that convention.

What excellent points?

[Free]

I'm in for 6♦. The only losers we have are in ♦, and V vs NV I expect very few losers, more like 'exactly 1'...

[MickyB]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 19 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I don't use 3N for solid minor openings, and I suspect that fewer and fewer readers of this forum do, after some of the excellent points made against that convention.

What excellent points?

Presumably relating to the wrong-siding 3NT - the opening lead is through the honours in dummy and, after the opening lead (an ace if you have one), defence is almost double-dummy.

[Free]

MickyB, on Apr 19 2006, 05:28 PM, said:

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 19 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I don't use 3N for solid minor openings, and I suspect that fewer and fewer readers of this forum do, after some of the excellent points made against that convention.

What excellent points?

Presumably relating to the wrong-siding 3NT - the opening lead is through the honours in dummy and, after the opening lead (an ace if you have one), defence is almost double-dummy.

It's a limited opening

[whereagles]

MickyB, on Apr 19 2006, 04:28 PM, said:

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 19 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I don't use 3N for solid minor openings, and I suspect that fewer and fewer readers of this forum do, after some of the excellent points made against that convention.

What excellent points?

Presumably relating to the wrong-siding 3NT - the opening lead is through the honours in dummy and, after the opening lead (an ace if you have one), defence is almost double-dummy.

Wrong-siding and double-dummy defending are a much lesser priority than showing shape and strength.. but ok, anyone plays the way he likes.

[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

1♦ - 4NT
5♣ - 6♦
All Pass

---

I pretty much drove to the slam. I thought it possible for partner to hold:

♠x ♥KQx ♦QJT9xxx ♣xx

But, that is a very specific hand and we can ask for keycards. It is also possible for him to hold hand with a diamond loser. I figured he opened 3♦ red versus white so it was worth the risk. I don't know if that was the correct thinking with an unknown partnership, but it happened to work this time.

Here the diamond slam is off on a heart lead, but cold on any other lead. We lucked out on it, although I do not think the heart (as opposed to a club or spade) is obvious.

At the other table, the auction went 3♦ - 3NT. West found the great lead of the ♥K and was able to play K, Q, and another heart clearing the suit. A diamond was lead and East has a tough diamond guess, which unfortunately he got wrong. Now, let's rewind a bit. 3NT is cold on any lead double dummy. Can you see how?

[zasanya]

3♦ inour system at this vul means 7 card ♦ but little outside strength and suit will not be headed by A K Q.(Such hands are opened 3 ♣ in our system. )So 1 loser in ♦ is almost certain.
4♣ asks in ♦.Now Openers 4♦ denies A or K .4♥ shows either A or K but not Q. 3♠ shows two of the top 3 honors.
With 1st two responses prudent to stay in 5♦.With 3rd response blast to 6♦
BTW we wont open 3 ♦ with this hand at this vulnerability.

[pclayton]

Discuss with your pards, but with Brian we play all preempts use the Rule of 2-3-4.

In this seat, pard should deliver 6 tricks. At MPs, we carry 2-3-4 over into losing trick count, which leads to some creative bidding. In other words, a hand that looks like a preempt with 7 losers (i.e., 6 tricks) is a 3 bid.

I would expect: ♠xx, ♥xxx, ♦KQxxxxx, ♣x, or ♠xx, ♥Kxx, ♦QJxxxxx, ♣x, and the like.

Slam very well may come down to the possession of the J♦, or the ♦10-9.

When Rubens wrote his useful space principle articles many, many years ago, I remember a discussion about these exact issues. Josh's 0=1=1=2=2 response structure is sound (I play it too), but perhaps follow ups could be based on what Ruben's was suggesting.

After say:

3♦ - 4♣
4♠....

Perhaps 4N can be: Bid 6 with the ♦J; otherwise 5..........

[hotShot]

Echognome, on Apr 20 2006, 01:38 PM, said:

Here the diamond slam is off on a heart lead, but cold on any other lead. We lucked out on it, although I do not think the heart (as opposed to a club or spade) is obvious.

Double dummy, you can take the ♥A, drop the 2nd ♥ on ♣ and the 3rd on ♠. So 6♦ can be made, in theory.