[kgr]

1D-P-1H-P
2H-P-P-2S
P-P-??
I play double here a pure penalty.
But one of the most interesting posters here said in another post: "double is primarily takeout".
I have to say that with my regular partner I only play takeout and penalty doubles. Nothing in between.
What do you think, is double more penalty or take-out here...or pure penalty or takeout?

[whereagles]

There's no need for a take-out double when you already have a fit, so double here is probably better used as penalties.

As the other guy says, 'penalties doesn't mean you have KQJTxx, but sure have points.'

[bid_em_up]

It is definitely penalty oriented, since your side has already found a fit. (What would you be taking it out to? Your own suit?) I believe that double of this type should say, I am on max pass of 2H, and have some defense (and should have 3+ spades), how do you like your hand on defense pard? (Cooperative/Maximal double)

This, of course, also needs partner to be able to use good judgement in deciding whether to leave in or pull, or you will frequently find yourself -470/670.


jmoo.

[paulg]

Penalty, as a double would have been by your partner.

I play that once you have both denied game invitational values, it is more common to catch the opposition when they make a mistake than to change your mind about your last call (which was Pass)!

Paul

[mikeh]

I was the poster who said primarily for takeout. In hindsight I ought to have been more careful

For me it is highly unlikely that the 1♥ bidder, having passed 2♥, wouldhave a hand that could assure his side of beating 2♠ 2 or more tricks: and one would double for a 1 trick set only at mps with the opps vulnerable. The reasons are, I trust, obvious.

On the other hand, one could well imagine a holding that was maximum for 2♥: has a realistic expectation of 9 tricks but none for game, and so passed 2♥.

Now, the double is useful as an action double: it shows maximal values for the pass of 2♥ and announces that this is our hand. Doubler has some defence and some offence, and leaves it to opener to make the decision.

It would be my expectation that opener would pull the double with most (but not all) doubleton ♠ and leave it in with a balanced decent hand with 3 (or more) ♠.

My expectation would be that opener will pull somewhat more often than he will sit: and on the given hand, where I held AQJx of the opps suit, my expectation would be that he would pull far more often than he would sit. Thus, my double is more accurately described as 'action' or 'co-operative' or 'cards' but on the given hand it will result in a takeout far more often than a pass.

BTW, thank you for the adjective 'interesting' I would prefer 'erudite' or 'insightful' etc, but 'interesting' ain't bad Even tho it reminds me of my favourite curse: may you live in interesting times

[luis]

Takeout of course.
The difference between the double and 3♥ is that a double suggests the hand has improved with the 2♠ bid.
A penalty double doesn't make sense after 1♦ - 1♥ when the opponents bid 2♠ voluntarily you can't have a penalty double of 2♠.

At Matchpoints an interesting way to see it is to double with 2 or 3 spades and to bid 3♥ when you have 1, then opener can consider if he wants to pass 2♠x or play 3♥ instead.

[MickyB]

For me, it is for penalties. While it feels wrong to describe it as "pure" penalties I don't expect it to be pulled, because partner would already have competed to 3H with any hand that is sufficiently offensive.

[mikeh]

MickyB, on Apr 7 2006, 12:32 PM, said:

For me, it is for penalties. While it feels wrong to describe it as "pure" penalties I don't expect it to be pulled, because partner would already have competed to 3H with any hand that is sufficiently offensive.

I could not disagree more. We have seen here that most players respond at the one-level on weak hands comprising an A and a J, with 4=3=3=3 shape. Any opener who voluntarily bids 3♥ here, over the balancing 2♠, doesn't need or deserve a partner.

[MickyB]

Do you expect opener to pass on any hand? Because a double showing an offensive hand seems just as risky as a 3H bid showing an offensive hand, if partner has rubbish he will just bid 3H and hope that he isn't doubled. I don't see how you can judge when to push to 3H and when to pass out 2S (doubled) if opener is passing over 2S whether he 2344, 4351 or 1453.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are worrying too much about an occasional big loss (we wrongly compete to 3H *and* get doubled - not likely when they have little idea whose hand it is) rather than a much more frequent if slightly smaller loss (judging whether to compete). I suspect you also get fewer penalties of 2S.

[FrancesHinden]

luis, on Apr 7 2006, 05:51 PM, said:

Takeout of course.
The difference between the double and 3♥ is that a double suggests the hand has improved with the 2♠ bid.
A penalty double doesn't make sense after 1♦ - 1♥ when the opponents bid 2♠ voluntarily you can't have a penalty double of 2♠.

There's no 'of course' about it.
Of course you can have a penalty double.
I've taken some of my largest penalties in this sort of auction.
You can also have an 'action' double ("I've got a maximum please do something useful").

You can agree to play it the way mikeh does, which to my mind is useful at mps as you will pick up more penalties.

But many people - incuding me - play double as penalties; partner will usually only pull on a void at imps.