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Deep Finesse vs. Deep Rosenberg and other memories from Dallas

#1 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 06:59

What follows is a story of a nice hand from the recent ACBL Nationals in Dallas, but before I get to that here are a couple of other notable memories from that tournament:

I always meet dozens of BBO members for the first time at major tournaments. I have no idea who most of these people are, but it is always nice to hear their (mostly positive!) comments about BBO. I occasionally meet someone who I have previously met online and, strangely, they are almost always completely different from what I had been expecting.

Near the end of the Dallas tournament, a young lady who I had never seen before came up to me and told me she was a BBO member. I immediately guessed that she was Elianna, a regular poster to forums. I knew this, not only because I knew that Elianna was a young lady who was going to be in Dallas, but because the same enthusiasm and good nature that is so evident in her posts was also immediately evident when we met in person.

Nice to meet you Elianna :)

On Friday and Saturday, the last 2 rounds of the Vanderbilt were broadcast as BBO vugraph. I was playing (unfortunately not in the Vanderbilt!) on those days, but after the evening session I went to the bar (as usual!) and was happy to see that there were several "stations" where people had set up laptops and were watching BBO vugraph! People were crowded around each of these computers. There were at least 100 people in the bar watching vugraph, most of them glued to the various monitors during the dramatic endings of these matches. Adam Wildavsky was providing commentary to the BBO audience through one of these computers while several other leading American players were (verbally) helping him with the analysis. Several of the world's top stars (including Tor Helness, Alfredo Versace, and Bob Hamman) were watching from a different station.

I thought all of this was pretty cool :)

Now for the hand...

This hand occurred during the first session of one of the big pairs events. During the first round of the 2nd session, Michael Rosenberg played at my table and told me "Deep Finesse was finally wrong!".

I have heard this before from other people. Generally I ignore such comments as I believe that DF (and GIB) are 100% accurate in their double dummy analysis. However, Michael Rosenberg is about the closest thing we have to a human version of DF. I looked at the hand for about a minute (it did not appear to be a very complicated hand) and it really seemed that Michael was right!

A few hours later I had a chance to think about the hand some more and I found that play sequence that Michael had missed and DF had seen. The hand (but not the answer) follows.

Of course any of you can use DF or GIB to figure out the answer, but I suggest you try to work it out yourself first. If you do use a program to find the answer then please do not post what you have learned!



DF says that South can make only 2NT, but at first glance Michael and I both thought that 3NT was a make.

Can you see how the defense can hold declarer to 8 tricks?

This hand also made me think: Is A10 opposite 76xx the weakest 4-2 fit in which declarer can win 2 tricks on power (if KQJxx are onside and 98 are offside)?

Fred Gitelman
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#2 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 07:27

That is the neatest problem I've seen in a long time and very fun to solve without using DF etc. (resist the temptation - keep working on it, as it is worthwhile) - involves lots of "this must be this, so that must be that" thinking. Thanks for posting this (and now I'll be late to work).
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#3 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 07:35

Club lead (small), won by Ace. When declarer attacks spades, RHO ducks twice. If Declarer tries to set up the third spade, he squeezes dummy into either establishing diamonds or clubs. So, Declarer tries small diamond toward dummy. This is hopped upon, two clubs cashed by LHO, and the spade remains as an entry to RHO for the fourth club.

I think this works.
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#4 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 07:40

More to it than that I think, Ken. If declarer does play a 3rd round of spades throwing a heart from dummy, he might still take 4 hearts, 3 spades, 1 diamond and 1 club.

Edit:

My answer -

Spoiler

This post has been edited by MickyB: 2006-April-10, 07:45

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#5 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 07:46

Yes more to it - not posting a spoiler - edit: note the next post right below this does contain the spoiler
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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 08:08

That is no problem. On third spade, RHO sends a club to LHO. LHO maintains one and plays the fourth spade. This again squeezes dummy, while maintaining transportation.

The same basic approach works if Declarer first runs his hearts.

The key to this is simple squeeze prep. The defense needs to take five tricks. Thus, the defense rectifies the count by ducking two spades. As transportation (the other aspect of squeezes) is the problem, but as rectiftying count solves this through a squeeze, voila!

I am not sure what squeeze this is, but I think it might be a guard squeeze?
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#7 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 10:20

fred, on Apr 10 2006, 07:59 AM, said:

This hand also made me think: Is A10 opposite 76xx the weakest 4-2 fit in which declarer can win 2 tricks on power (if KQJxx are onside and 98 are offside)?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

How about AT7x opposite xx with KQJxx onside and 98 offside, or KQJx and 98x? It is not only weaker* than the holding you post since it lacks the six, but makes in more case.

*This combination 'seems' stronger at a glance since the honors are in the long hand, but I think is technically weaker in the way you meant it.


I also had the same reaction to the little BBO vugraph stations throughout the tournament, it was really great, and the highlight of an otherwise terrible tournament for me. I was watching the semifinal match between Hollman and Chang in the bar with Billy and Ron who were on the Hollman team but sitting out, and Disa who is the wife of one of the players who was in. Later a bunch of us went up to someone's hotel room with two laptops to watch both tables of the match at the same time, which was a lot of fun. In the bar we had been hoping they could even hook a laptop up to one of the big screen TVs! Unforunately it didn't happen (that I saw), but I bet it does at some time in the future.
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#8 User is offline   winkle 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 10:55

jdonn, on Apr 10 2006, 11:20 AM, said:

How about AT7x opposite xx with KQJxx onside and 98 offside, or KQJx and 98x? It is not only weaker* than the holding you post since it lacks the six, but makes in more case.

*This combination 'seems' stronger at a glance since the honors are in the long hand, but I think is technically weaker in the way you meant it.

It seems Fred must have some other definition. If the honors are in the long hand all you need is QT54 opposite 32 with AKJ on side.
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#9 User is offline   Elianna 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 16:58

fred, on Apr 10 2006, 04:59 AM, said:

Near the end of the Dallas tournament, a young lady who I had never seen before came up to me and told me she was a BBO member. I immediately guessed that she was Elianna, a regular poster to forums. I knew this, not only because I knew that Elianna was a young lady who was going to be in Dallas, but because the same enthusiasm and good nature that is so evident in her posts was also immediately evident when we met in person.

Nice to meet you Elianna :(

It was nice to meet you, too, Fred. :)

I only found out later that you had just won the IMP pairs right before I accosted you, and I was very embarrassed that I didn't say congratulations!

So anyway, congratulations!
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#10 User is offline   Salokin 

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Posted 2006-April-10, 17:42

fred, on Apr 10 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

Dealer: ?????
Vul: ????
Scoring: Unknown
♠ Kx
♥ Kxxxx
♦ Kx
♣ 76xx
♠ xxxx
♥ Jx
♦ AJ10x
♣ K98
♠ A10x
♥ 10xx
♦ Qxx
♣ QJxx
♠ QJ98
♥ AQx
♦ xxxx
♣ A10
 

Can you see how the defense can hold declarer to 8 tricks?


Hi,
lets try:

1- C8 Cx CQ CA
2- Sx Sx SK Sx
3- Sx S10 SJ Sx
4- SQ Sx Hx SA
5- Cx C10 CK Cx
6- Sx ? on his 3. S winner dummy is squeezed

but what if Dec ducks 1. trick?
with one trick in bag we could switch to D

I hope i didn't miss anything

Salokin
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#11 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2006-April-11, 03:21

Nice problem. Many folks at my bridge club where I brought it were also in the "declare 3NT" camp initially.

In the variation of the declarer play I followed, the KC lead is won, two spades played and ducked by the defenese, and then hearts are run.



At the 5 card ending you get a clear opportunity to squeeze the dummy by East. Trapped on dummy after the run of the hearts, declarer exits a club. East wins and cashs the AS to set up his long club or partner's diamond suit.

Note that it's important for the defense in this declarer's line for East to unblock the Q♦. Otherwise in the above position, dummy exits a low diamond and West cannot afford to overtake. Without communication, the clubs eventually provide an extra trick with East stuck on lead.
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#12 User is offline   andych 

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Posted 2006-April-12, 23:03

Not trying to solve the problem. Something I like to hear .... sorry for branching away..... ;) :lol:

Rosenbery is widely considered "the closest thing to a human DF". Does it has any relevance to label him "#1 individual player"?

Acutally I hear some other world stars have their own image/label/charisteristic too...
Helgemo - his Bridge is so special, talented
Hamman & Meckstroth - practical
Rodwell - mad scientist
Zia - tricky, dont believe his cards
Helness & Forrestor - the only 2 players where Helgemo stamp "Intelligient" in his book (which one?)
Rosenberg - technical

What is the meaning of Helgemo special, similar with Zia tricky?
What is the meaning of Hamman/Meckstroth practical, similar with Rosenberg technical?

I understand there is no clear answer. But guess it would be fun just to see your views.... :lol: :lol:
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#13 User is offline   jdeegan 

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Posted 2006-April-13, 14:31

fred, on Apr 10 2006, 07:59 AM, said:

Dealer: ?????
Vul: ????
Scoring: Unknown
♠ Kx
♥ Kxxxx
♦ Kx
♣ 76xx
♠ xxxx
♥ Jx
♦ AJ10x
♣ K98
♠ A10x
♥ 10xx
♦ Qxx
♣ QJxx
♠ QJ98
♥ AQx
♦ xxxx
♣ A10
 




:)
Spoiler

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