[david_c]

In WJ we play

1♣ : 2♣ = forcing with clubs
1♣ : 1♦ , 1M : 2♣ = to play opposite a weak balanced opener

How about swapping these around? It seems more useful to show your club suit immediately when you have a weakish hand, in case LHO is about to bid a major. Whereas with a stronger hand you are in a better position to cope with interference.

[Blofeld]

My gut reaction to this is:
nice idea!

[mr1303]

Similar to my suggestion on 3/4 reverse Lebensohl.

Which you rejected out of hand

(But yeah, that seems a perfectly logical suggestion.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am not playing art. system, so take the
following comment with a grain of salt:

I think it is better to play it the original way,
assuming that 2C sets up a forcing pass seq.,
in which case both players can deal with the int,
because they will try to intervene at the 2 level.

Intervention on the 1 level is peanuts, opener
has enough space to tell you anything.

Suppose

1C (1) - (Pass) - 1D (2) - 2M (3)
??? (4) - (Pass) - ???(5)

(1) polnish club, i.e. a weak 12-14 NT is possible, ... a very freq. situation
(2) artificial, could be weak
(3) natural, constructive, i.e. +10/11, but the req. for the bid maybe shaded
since partner passed
(4) ??? dbl?, March on the 3 level and get burned since
partner is dead, or reopen let partner make the dec. to hand them
530 vs. 500(5) after opener
(5) ??? dbl, catch the weak NT, 3C forcing, when 3C may the limit

If I played polnish club, I would like to have a seq.

1C (1) - (Pass) - 2C (2) - 2M (3)
...

(1) polnish club, i.e. a weak 12-14 NT is possible, ... a very freq. situation
(2) clubs and forcing

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I supose the reasons why the system is as it is, are:
1) See Marlowe's comment
2) If you are very weak with a five-card clubs you may prefer 2♣ to 1NT when you know p is balanced. But since your clubs will not be playable opposite a singleton, you will just pass if he rebids something else.
3) Historical reasons. Polish Club grew out of Viena in the 30's when the main focus was on stopping as soon as possible with weak hands.

I see the advantages of your siggestion as well, of course. I don't have enough experience with the system to say if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[Flame]

sounds good, is there any different with diamonds ?

[david_c]

Flame, on Apr 9 2006, 10:20 AM, said:

sounds good, is there any different with diamonds ?

Not sure about diamonds. There are a few reasons why bidding an immediate 2♦ on a moderate hand with diamonds wouldn't work so well as bidding 2♣ with clubs:

(i) You're not going to find partner with a big fit. The advantage of 1♣:2♣ on a weak hand is when your LHO overcalls but partner knows it's right to compete in clubs.

(ii) Opener might have a minimum hand with a singleton diamond. So you wouldn't be able to bid 2♦ so freely as you can bid 2♣. That reduces the frequency.

(iii) You'd have problems when opener has the natural variant - do you want to be in game or not? If not, how do you find the best part-score? And how would you distinguish opener's "medium club" hands from strong hands? These hands aren't a problem after 1♣:2♣ because you have a huge fit to fall back on (indeed, it's very unlikely that opener has a medium club hand if the auction starts 1♣:2♣ uncontested).

Having said all that, it would be nice to take as many semi-positive hands out of 1♦ as possible. Maybe you could use 2♦ as a fit-bid, showing 5+ diamonds and at least three clubs. That would solve the problem of finding playable part-scores when opener has the natural variant.

Edit: Oh, I forgot

(iv) You don't have as much space over 2♦ as you do over 2♣. The sequence 1♣:2♣,2♦ is very helpful for coping with the strong variant of the 1♣ opening.

[david_c]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 7 2006, 06:02 PM, said:

Suppose

1C (1)  - (Pass) - 1D (2) - 2M (3)
??? (4) - (Pass)  - ???(5)

(1) polnish club, i.e. a weak 12-14 NT is possible, ... a very freq. situation
(2) artificial, could be weak
(3) natural, constructive, i.e. +10/11, but the req. for the bid maybe shaded
    since partner passed
(4) ??? dbl?, March on the 3 level and get burned since
    partner is dead, or reopen let partner make the dec. to hand them
    530 vs. 500(5) after opener
(5) ??? dbl, catch the weak NT, 3C  forcing, when 3C may the limit

Not sure this is really a problem. Opener passes to show the weak balanced hand (as always), and now responder can reopen with a take-out double, or a cue-bid, or 3♣ (forcing I suppose). There seem to be plenty of options. Indeed these options seem rather underused in standard Polish Club.

My original post didn't spell this out, but the intended ranges were:

1♣ : 2♣ = 6-10 HCP approximately
1♣ : 1♦ , 1M : 2♣ = forcing to game

This is what you get by simply switching the meanings in WJ. You might ask what happens with an invitational hand, but these don't seem to exist. (Well, you can invite if you treat the hand as balanced, or if you have a 6-card suit, but otherwise you have to fudge a little.)