[inquiry]

Hannie, on Mar 31 2006, 05:14 PM, said:

I'm shocked Ben.

So shocked that I see you forgot to mention your choice. Both 1♠ and 2♠ are flawed, but for the life of me I can't see bidding 3♠ on this hand. I wouldn't worry too much about 1 or 2, and in fact, if dealt it without thinking too much I would 1♠ at all vul, but only upon reflection have I decided the not perfect bid of 2♠ when vul is better than the not perfect bid of 1♠. Not vul, I reverse the choices.

[han]

Adam said:


On this hand, if I open and partner has some 13 count with a singleton spade, I expect that we will not make a game...


So, there are possible lay-outs where opens 1S will work out badly. It is equally clear that there are possible lay-outs where opening 1S will work magically. Perhaps you are right that the former is more likely, I am not quite convinced by your arguments.

My thoughts are more in the line of Joshs's, passing with a 7-card suit is not attractive and it is really not my style. 1S, 2S and 3S all have serious flaws. I'd like to have a better suit when I'm opening 1S this light, and I certainly want a better suit for a vulnerable 3S bid. Only 2S is left and I can live with it.

[han]

inquiry, on Mar 31 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

Hannie, on Mar 31 2006, 05:14 PM, said:

I'm shocked Ben.

So shocked that I see you forgot to mention your choice. Both 1♠ and 2♠ are flawed, but for the life of me I can't see bidding 3♠ on this hand. I wouldn't worry too much about 1 or 2, and in fact, if dealt it without thinking too much I would 1♠ at all vul, but only upon reflection have I decided the not perfect bid of 2♠ is better than the not perfect bid of 1♠.

I was just kidding, but I did expect you to open 1S (29 Zar with spades!). I might open 1S when playing with you, it is my second choice after 2S (see above).

[Double !]

my 2 cents (now $4.99: inflation)

I selected to open 1S, 3 reasons (besides zars)
1) have spades, master suit, can always correct the bidding if things go poorly and P keeps making unwanted bids. Not sure I could always do this if my suit happened to be hearts.

2) Most partners that I have had will never play me for 2 aces with a weak 2 bid. Anyway, vul, my weak 2 bids tend to become more textbook-like or closer to the template of KQJ6th and whatever outside. The bid tends to imply where the concentration of values is located. I might be more inclined to open 3S than 2S. At least Hx in spades along with decent hand should give P a chance to set up spades and then enter my hand via club in 3NT. and, with any 3-card spade support, Partner likely will raise to 4S, hopefully shutting down the opps. My problem with 3S is that I have more defense than P might expect.

3) I do have 2 quick tricks for defensive purposes should the opps start opening their mouths. At least I'll provide some of the defense that P will expect with a 1-bid.


ho-hum:
enjoy
DHL

[luis]

Double !, on Mar 31 2006, 11:56 PM, said:

my 2 cents (now $4.99: inflation)

I selected to open 1S, 3 reasons (besides zars)
1) have spades, master suit, can always correct the bidding if things go poorly and P keeps making unwanted bids. Not sure I could always do this if my suit happened to be hearts.

2) Most partners that I have had will never play me for 2 aces with a weak 2 bid. Anyway, vul, my weak 2 bids tend to become more textbook-like or closer to the template of KQJ6th and whatever outside. The bid tends to imply where the concentration of values is located. I might be more inclined to open 3S than 2S. At least Hx in spades along with decent hand should give P a chance to set up spades and then enter my hand via club in 3NT. and, with any 3-card spade support, Partner likely will raise to 4S, hopefully shutting down the opps. My problem with 3S is that I have more defense than P might expect.

3) I do have 2 quick tricks for defensive purposes should the opps start opening their mouths. At least I'll provide some of the defense that P will expect with a 1-bid.


ho-hum:
enjoy
DHL

Finally somebody saying something sensate!

Gee I thought everybody had gone crazy.

[awm]

I suspect that a lot of people don't analyze these light openers too accurately.

People who play them normally remember a small number of times when they had no fit, and partner bid to a terrible game and a bad result. But then they remember a large number of times when partner did have a fit and they reached an excellent game or slam on not-so-many high card points.

It's not that people's memories are selective (although they are). The issue is that passing these shapely eights and nines at the one level will always keep you out of the terrible games, but most of the time you will still reach the excellent light fitting games. So many of the "good results" from opening these sorts of hands are in fact "good results" that you could also have gotten if you started with a pass.

Even the supposedly dangerous competitive auctions are something of an illusion. The faster opponents bid to 4♥, the bigger fit they have. The bigger fit they have, the bigger fit you have... and the more safe it becomes to bid 4♠ over 4♥.

Anyways people seem to assume that "if I pass this hand we're out of the auction unless partner can open" which is actually quite far from the truth. Really analyzing this kind of opening bid requires a lot of data that no one has really collected, on what tends to happen after an initial pass and how likely it is that you can reach the top contract anyway.

[Gerben42]

First of all, this is NOT an opening bid whatever way you turn it (unless you play a system in which you always open light, like Precision). Two Aces just don't make an opening bid if the rest is all small stuff.

Then you cannot preempt with two Aces either. Just don't.

So you pass and marvel at how well this works. By passing you have not yet lost the hand, this is the current trend nowadays "gee I can't pass since I will never be able to...". Calm down and pass.

So basically I'm with Adam on this one.

[mr1303]

My choice here was 3S. It might not be exactly text book, but:

1) If I open this 1S partner may end up making penalty doubles at too low a level, expecting more defence from me, and I'll be uncomfortable sitting for it.

2) Opening 2S with a 7 card suit is something I really dislike doing, when partner will play me for a 6 card suit.

3) Passing and then bidding 2S, or 3S or something similar doesn't appeal either, since then partner will play me to have a greater flaw than a bad suit quality, such as a 4 card heart suit.

[MickyB]

Why do the passers think that they can describe their hand better having passed first? For passing first and then taking action at a high level, I'd expect some kind of 2 suiter.

I'm really torn on this one. 1♠ will get you too high when partner has a stiff (but with two aces I don't mind defending). 2♠ is about right on ODR, but the hand is too strong. 3♠ is about right on playing strength, but I've got too much defence.

I prefer 1♠ or 3♠ to 2♠.

[hrothgar]

MickyB, on Apr 1 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Why do the passers think that they can describe their hand better having passed first?

This hand presents a very real problem for anyone playing a sound opening system like 2/1 game force.

A 1♠ open is fraught with danger. 1♠ has the nasty effect of preempting your partner. Assume that you are playing BBO advanced. If partner doesn't have a Spade fit - which will happen over 66% of the time - he's going to be forced to make one of three bids:

A 2/1, which establishes an immediate Game Force
A pass, showing the opposite extreme
A forcing NT which covers everything else

I'm not going enjoy any of these auctions: The 2/1 auctions will invaribly work out poorly since partner's 2/1 is going to be based on the assumption that I actually have an opening hand. Far too often partner is going to force us into a miserable 3NT contract or a bad 4S, both of which will fail because I lack both Spade honors and outside strength: Where do you expect to play opposite a hand like

Q
AJT53
KQ43
QJ4

I readily admit, starting with a pass is also going to present a lot of problem. In particular, competitive auctions are going to be a bitch. I might end up forced to supress the Spade suit altogther because bidding 3♠ on a later round would be defined as fit showing.

There is a very good reason why I like to play MOSCITO. Light opening systems are systemically designed to cater to the possiblity that partner's one level opening was based on a hand like this one. They don't force you into all of those miserable 3NT contracts that only Meckwell and Gromov seem to survive