[pbleighton]

"If you open 10 count's in 1/2 you really should open sounder in 3/4."

I play 10-13 1-3 all vuls, and 14-17 in the 4th. You are right, we really "should" play 14-17 in the 3rd..

Peter

[jdeegan]

I can pass on one fact from experience: opening a 10-12 HCP NT opposite a passed hand is murder. The opponents know its either their hand or a 50-50 HCP split. Opening 11-14 HCP a la K-S or Acol seems a little safer, but still a little dangerous.

So, I can sort of back in to how to answer your question. Stronger NT openers in third or fourth seat make sense to me. What one does first and second seat is what it is.

[luke warm]

i prefer 12-14/15 all the time, but i have no clue whether this is a winner or not, in the long run...

[Cascade]

I play and really like:

11+ - 14 in 1st and 2nd

15-17 in 3rd and 4th

We did this so that our 1NT structure was meaningful over a 3rd and 4th seat opener.

If you have a structure that is aimed at bidding game then that is redundant when partner has passed and you have a weak hand.

The alternative to playing a different range is to play a different structure over 3rd and 4th seat openers that is more aimed at finding the best part-score.

We lose the pre-emptive effect of opening a weak 1NT especially in 3rd seat but we get some of this back and perhaps more by opening 4-card Majors much more often in 3rd/4th seat. When you have a weak NT in 3rd/4th seat then the hand is much more likely to be a part-score hand so it is good to be able to bid your suits. In fact our whole structure after a 3rd/4th seat opening is changed to increase the accuracy in bidding part-scores. In particular a 2/1 is NF. Maybe everyone plays 2/1 as NF by a passed hand but for us they show a six-card suit and around 6-9 hcp.

[david_c]

MickyB, on Mar 6 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

It wouldn't occur to me to open anything else playing a 14-16 NT. But then I do seem to downgrade more than upgrade these days (I think I just like to be different).

I think you're feeling the upwards pressure from 17-counts. If you were playing a 15-17 NT you would instead be feeling downwards pressure from 14-counts.

[Gerben42]

Assuming a standard strong NT system, here's why I like 14 - 16 all the way.

First and second seat I think there is agreement so far. Far better frequency than 15 - 17, getting to use your well-oiled 1NT opening machine more often is a winner. Also since opening bids may be light this puts more control on 1NT rebids. This outweighs the pressure on the 17 HCP hands IMHO.

Third / Fourth seat: The advantage of 15 - 17 over 14 - 16 is clear: you can use 1N 3N more often. This is why I don't like the weaker NTs that much opposite a passed partner.

However if you open light and you play 15 - 17 NT opposite a passed hand, with 14 HCP you will open 1m and partner may just have 11 balanced to make your game worthwile.
Opening a 14 - 16 NT, if you lack the values for that you have no game hopes and you can just open 1m and see what happens. Just makes things easier.

[kenrexford]

I like this analysis most. Why? It suits my actual action. LOL

Here's why. There are occasionally maximum pass hands opposite 1NT openings. Should one field protect? Sure. If partner lacks interest in game opposite a maximum pass, why not simply open a minor and protect the partscore at 1NT? Interference might be a basis, I suppose. But, if the goal is constructive, then avoid the 2NT sequence immediately.

[joshs]

Gerben42, on Mar 7 2006, 08:17 AM, said:

Assuming a standard strong NT system, here's why I like 14 - 16 all the way.

First and second seat I think there is agreement so far. Far better frequency than 15 - 17, getting to use your well-oiled 1NT opening machine more often is a winner. Also since opening bids may be light this puts more control on 1NT rebids. This outweighs the pressure on the 17 HCP hands IMHO.

Third / Fourth seat: The advantage of 15 - 17 over 14 - 16 is clear: you can use 1N 3N more often. This is why I don't like the weaker NTs that much opposite a passed partner.

However if you open light and you play 15 - 17 NT opposite a passed hand, with 14 HCP you will open 1m and partner may just have 11 balanced to make your game worthwile.
Opening a 14 - 16 NT, if you lack the values for that you have no game hopes and you can just open 1m and see what happens. Just makes things easier.

You play 14-16 NT in 1/2 but don't open balanced 11's?

[jdulmage]

I will only open 14 point NT hands in 3rd seat and generally with no major support, say 3-3 or 3-2 in the majors. My reasoning behind this is that most of the field will open 1 of a minor and if their partner has a 4 card major to accompany your 4 card major, the field will play 2 of a major for 110 or 140 while I play 1NT passed out for 90 or 120, RARELY the great 150.

I will also want to play in 1NT - say a hand with suits of KJx or AQx. If I have a couple of aces and garbage outside. Say Axx AJ Qxxx QJxx, I will open 1 of a minor.