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*16+ any shape
Opposite a passed partner, how many clubs would you bid over a strong club?
Now that partner has upped the ante, do you act again now or do you hope 4♣ was enough?
Upping the ante
#1
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Posted 2006-February-28, 09:55
*16+ any shape
Opposite a passed partner, how many clubs would you bid over a strong club?
Now that partner has upped the ante, do you act again now or do you hope 4♣ was enough?
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#2
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Posted 2006-February-28, 10:27
After I preempt, I am out of the auction. Partner is the captain of this ship. And I am certainly not going to bid again after I preempt and partner raises.
--Ben--
#3 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-28, 10:41
3 is fine, bidding again after that with 6331 shows a lack of understanding of the game of bridge and partnership bidding (to put it mildly).
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Posted 2006-February-28, 10:48
Jlall, on Feb 28 2006, 11:41 AM, said:
(to put it mildly).
Lol.. i thought I put it mildly... :-)... but yeah, what justin said....
--Ben--
#5
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Posted 2006-February-28, 10:52
I think it's interesting personally. I was certainly taught the "bid now and forever hold your peace" style of preempting. However, opponents are in a closed auction and haven't gotten across very much information at all. You rate to have zero defense to any game and are favourable. Partner is a passed hand and your 3♣ is fairly wide ranging. Your hand is also pure in clubs. I certainly don't rate 5♣ to be the abomination you guys mention, but I'm willing to learn.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#6
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:16
Bidding again doesn't take that much space away - only 3 steps (they lose a level, but gain a pass and a double).
I don't think your defence to 4M is that poor- you expect a club trick, and your red suit honours can easily be worth something on defence. partner can see the vul too. Other than you having a stronger hand than he might expect, I see nothing that makes this different from any other 3♣ bid.
I don't think your defence to 4M is that poor- you expect a club trick, and your red suit honours can easily be worth something on defence. partner can see the vul too. Other than you having a stronger hand than he might expect, I see nothing that makes this different from any other 3♣ bid.
#7
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:20
It also takes away blackwood, a 5-level cue, and a general invite. Methods starting at the 5-level aren't that great.
They also have to decide whether to bid on or defend. You can see 2 possible tricks in your hand (a ♣ and a ♥ or 2 ♣s) and a third if partner has a card. If you think partner will expect this hand, then that's fine. You've said your piece with 3♣.
They also have to decide whether to bid on or defend. You can see 2 possible tricks in your hand (a ♣ and a ♥ or 2 ♣s) and a third if partner has a card. If you think partner will expect this hand, then that's fine. You've said your piece with 3♣.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:24
Echognome, on Feb 28 2006, 12:20 PM, said:
If you think partner will expect this hand, then that's fine. You've said your piece with 3♣.
If you think that partner won't expect this hand, why didn't you start with 4♣?
I think 3♣ is probably best, but I wouldn't mind 4♣ in this situation.
Whichever I try, though, I'm saying my piece and then passing.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:25
Echognome, on Feb 28 2006, 11:52 AM, said:
I certainly don't rate 5♣ to be the abomination you guys mention, but I'm willing to learn.
You obviosuly have never had a busted partner raise to 4♣ on a stiff club. This is cruel to the oppoents. both wioth three small clubs will be certain their partner has a stiff. They can be down in six of something fairly quickly. Or partner might have been laying a different trap. maybe he has two clubs and four-four goodish in the major and WANTED to push them to 4 major. Maybe parther has two signicant cards, long !D to ACE and the ten of clubs and defense can be DA, Druff, clbu to ten, diamond ruff.. and if they play in spades, you might score the heart queen as well..
You preempted with 3♣,,, you described your hand. Let your partner be the mastermind now... only he knows your sides approximate assets... you do not.
--Ben--
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:26
Echognome, on Feb 28 2006, 05:20 PM, said:
It also takes away blackwood, a 5-level cue, and a general invite. Methods starting at the 5-level aren't that great.
If you were going to commit to 5♣, it would have put much more pressure on opener for your partner to have bid 5♣ at the first opportunity. If partner couldn't bid 5♣, then why should you?
I could understand wanting to bid 5♣ now if you were 6-4 shape, as that hand would typically be better offensively iff partner has a ♣ fit - that would make you not worth an immediate 4♣ bid, but possibly worth more now. Even so, I would pass and hope that when they make "the last guess", they guess incorrectly.
#11
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:36
I buy your argument here Mike; namely that if partner couldn't bid 5♣ then you should leave it alone. I didn't buy that 5♣ isn't taking away valuable bidding space. The question is whether it is giving your side a losing option.
I am all fine and dandy with the let the opponents make the last mistake. The question is down to one of style. I can understand Ben's point of view that partner has captaincy here. I would even go so far as to say that if partner were an unpassed hand, then pass is automatic.
But if partner is mucking about with a singleton, then that's partner's problem.
What if I held a 7321 hand with crappy clubs?
What if I held a 6430 hand? At least one person thinks that hand should bid on.
So I don't think partner will be masterminding too much on this auction.
Actually I know that some play that a 3NT bid by partner would say "Partner you are invited to sacrifice" whereas a 4♣ bid would say "Let me decide what to do on this auction."
Without a specific agreement, partner can have some hands where the sacrifice is great and some where it is not. Can partner judge for me to have this hand? Maybe.
As per Owen's point, when you preempted you only had limited information, now you have more. Ok. So maybe this isn't the hand that is the exception to the rule about bidding your hand once. But I do believe there are exceptions.
I am all fine and dandy with the let the opponents make the last mistake. The question is down to one of style. I can understand Ben's point of view that partner has captaincy here. I would even go so far as to say that if partner were an unpassed hand, then pass is automatic.
But if partner is mucking about with a singleton, then that's partner's problem.
What if I held a 7321 hand with crappy clubs?
What if I held a 6430 hand? At least one person thinks that hand should bid on.
So I don't think partner will be masterminding too much on this auction.
Actually I know that some play that a 3NT bid by partner would say "Partner you are invited to sacrifice" whereas a 4♣ bid would say "Let me decide what to do on this auction."
Without a specific agreement, partner can have some hands where the sacrifice is great and some where it is not. Can partner judge for me to have this hand? Maybe.
As per Owen's point, when you preempted you only had limited information, now you have more. Ok. So maybe this isn't the hand that is the exception to the rule about bidding your hand once. But I do believe there are exceptions.
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#12
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:43
If you think you have to bid again with this hand (quite normal 3♣ IMO), maybe you should reconsider some of the other 3♣ bids you make? 
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Posted 2006-February-28, 11:45
cherdano, on Feb 28 2006, 05:43 PM, said:
If you think you have to bid again with this hand (quite normal 3♣ IMO), maybe you should reconsider some of the other 3♣ bids you make?
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Laugh. Maybe that's it. It's definitely a matter of style. Anyway, I will bow out of defending a bid I haven't even admitted to making.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
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Posted 2006-February-28, 12:09
Echognome, on Feb 28 2006, 05:36 PM, said:
I buy your argument here Mike; namely that if partner couldn't bid 5♣ then you should leave it alone. I didn't buy that 5♣ isn't taking away valuable bidding space.
That wasn't what I said -
If partner had bid 5♣ himself, that would have taken away another 5 steps. You bidding 5♣ now takes away only three steps, and makes it much easier for them to do the right thing.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 12:18
Hi Matt:
IMHO you have raised the key question on this hand, how valuable is the space you take away by bidding 5Clubs. Most seem to argue the space is not that valuable, you differ.
It does seem the risk adjusted payout on this one is not worth bidding 5clubs, but I am a pretty conservative bidder.
IMHO you have raised the key question on this hand, how valuable is the space you take away by bidding 5Clubs. Most seem to argue the space is not that valuable, you differ.
It does seem the risk adjusted payout on this one is not worth bidding 5clubs, but I am a pretty conservative bidder.
#16 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-28, 12:34
mike777, on Feb 28 2006, 01:18 PM, said:
Hi Matt:
IMHO you have raised the key question on this hand, how valuable is the space you take away by bidding 5Clubs. Most seem to argue the space is not that valuable, you differ.
It does seem the risk adjusted payout on this one is not worth bidding 5clubs, but I am a pretty conservative bidder.
IMHO you have raised the key question on this hand, how valuable is the space you take away by bidding 5Clubs. Most seem to argue the space is not that valuable, you differ.
It does seem the risk adjusted payout on this one is not worth bidding 5clubs, but I am a pretty conservative bidder.
I think instead of thinking about this we should think more basic thinking.
A preempt is designed to jam the opponents auction and describe a hand with long clubs and not much in the way of defense.
Partners 4C bid further increased the pressure on the opponents, and indicated that that was as high as he is willing to bid because he either thinks we are going down too many in 5C X, or because he thinks we will have a shot at beating whatever contract the opponents have bid.
What do we have to overrule partner's very well informed decision (he knows a lot about our hand) and make a very poorly informed decision ourself (we know very little about is hand)?
Let's see well we have 6 clubs...hey that's the minimum amount of clubs we'll have in context of our 3C bid.
We don't have much defense...hey we said that when we bid 3C. But wait a minute, we have the HQ and the stiff DJ. Both often useless cards on offense, and good cards on defense. Hey we also have an ace! We will often produce 2 tricks for our preempt on defense, which is more than most 3C bids will produce.
We know the opps have a major suit fit...oh wait we don't. We are 3-3 in the majors! The opps may just have diamonds.
We need to make the opponents guess... wait a second they're already guessing because of our pressure bidding. The Xer could have a VERY wide range of shapes in this case, and responder to the Xer has no "flexible" bid if he is something like 4-4 in the majors. Even if they have a fit, they may guess the wrong one.
But...assuming their game makes, our sacrifice will be very profitable right? We have 7 losers. Partner chose to bid only 4 clubs. Even if he can cover 2 of our losers, that is 500 vs their game which is not really important. We would need to go for 300 to make it really worthwhile. Do we really think partner has enough offense to cover THREE of our losers AND not enough defense to beat the opponents AND didn't bid 5C? If partner has that much offense and that little defense, he would bid 5C himself.
What purpose does a 5C bid serve? What about our hand have we not shown with our 3C bid? The random red suit honors (defense) or only having 6 clubs? No wait...both argue for passing. I still can't figure out why 5C would be the least bit tempting.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 12:42
Agree with all that except the loser counting, Justin. Covering 2 losers = 3 off = 500, but I agree that partner may not be able to do that.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 12:42
"I still can't figure out why 5C would be the least bit tempting."
It is only tempting if it is very valuable space, your cogent argument is that it is not.
It is only tempting if it is very valuable space, your cogent argument is that it is not.
#19 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-28, 13:05
MickyB, on Feb 28 2006, 01:42 PM, said:
Agree with all that except the loser counting, Justin. Covering 2 losers = 3 off = 500, but I agree that partner may not be able to do that.
edited, not sure where i got those numbers, but the point is the same.
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Posted 2006-February-28, 13:34
Echognome, on Feb 28 2006, 11:52 AM, said:
I think it's interesting personally. I was certainly taught the "bid now and forever hold your peace" style of preempting. However, opponents are in a closed auction and haven't gotten across very much information at all. You rate to have zero defense to any game and are favourable. Partner is a passed hand and your 3♣ is fairly wide ranging. Your hand is also pure in clubs. I certainly don't rate 5♣ to be the abomination you guys mention, but I'm willing to learn.
If you think you have more offense than was expressed by 3C, you should have bid 4C initially (personally I think 3 is more than enough). In any case, after picking an number of clubs to bid the first time, you pass and leave partner in charge. If all partner does is raise your pre-empt (e.g. he didn't show another suit, or make some conventional bid that invites you to bid on) you are not invited to the party anymore. The one possible exception is if you under pre-empt on a 6-5 type hand, you might want to show your second suit to partner if convienyant. Thats a "might." The other day I held Q9xxxx Jxxxx JT - and bid 2S over RHO's strong club, LHO bid 3D, partner bid 4S, RHO bid 4N and I passed letting them sort out what this auction means and where they belong... There is no way I was taking another call with this crap, unless partner showed hearts....
BTW, I play 3N by partner in this type of auction as a 4.5 club bid, thus inviting you back in.
P - (1♣)* - 3♣ - (P)
4♣ - (X) - ?