[doc_jo]

Scoring: IMP

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West : 4sp - N : X - E: pass
What should S bid in your opinion? Thanks

Jo

[pbleighton]

I would pass, as I play that a double of 4S and above is for penalty. Not everyone plays this way, but I believe most ( at least in the U.S.) do.

Peter

[awm]

The standard meaning of double is "values." Partner is normally expected to leave it in with a fairly balanced hand, or to pull to a long suit with a lot of shape. The expectation is that it's extremely rare to have a trump stack after the 4♠ opening, so double shouldn't be "I have this beat, please pass" so much as "I have a good hand, I doubt they are making." The second meaning leaves a lot more leeway for partner to make the right decision.

With that said, I think passing is probably best for south. The shape is okay for a 5♥ bid, but the heart suit isn't very good. Doubler could easily have only two hearts (double wasn't takeout after all) in which case 5♥ can go for a number with 4♠ not making.

[Free]

I'd probably bid 5♥ with the south hand. Too bad you already showed the North hand as well, because now people will be influenced by the possible result. That's why I said 'probably'

[Codo]

I had passed with my std. pd, as his X had been penalties...
Had not worked well this hand, okay, but so what?
If it does not work well too often, we may change the meaning of the double.

If double just show cards, it is tricky: Pd will have a kind of H fit, so you do not need much for the slam to make.
Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart, which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too.

[coyot]

Codo, on Feb 20 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

I had passed with my std. pd, as his X had been penalties...
Had not worked well this hand, okay, but so what?
If it does not work well too often, we may change the meaning of the double.

If double just show cards, it is tricky: Pd will have a kind of H fit, so you do not need much for the slam to make.
Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart, which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too.

Don't need much for the slam? You need a whole lot to make 5♥ .

You're looking at 9 losers :-). LHO has promised long spades, nothing else. This increases the likelihood of RHO having most of the values your side is missing.

I would gladly pass 4♠x and hope that partner can get 3 tricks along with my diamond ace. Even 5♥ might be a stretch if p has anything less than AKx in hearts. Typically Kjx(x) - meaning 2 hearts and one spade off right from the start .

What is his most likely shape? balanced, 2-3 spades. No ruffing power whatsoever (probably will need all his trumps to draw trumps, they're likely to be 6331.)

If he has any decent 2-suiter, he'll bid 4NT - then 5♥ might be a good contract.

[zhs1971]

Although the 4SX is penalty, but it's often based on strong hand while not strong Spade. So, I will bid 5H.

[mr1303]

I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level".

So I'd happily take this out to 5H

[joker_gib]

mr1303, on Feb 20 2006, 01:33 PM, said:

I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level".

So I'd happily take this out to 5H

I agree totally

Alain

[mr1303]

Quote

I agree totally

Alain

I've noticed a number of posts recently with people saying that. Maybe I'm finally getting better at this game.

[cherdano]

mr1303, on Feb 20 2006, 02:33 PM, said:

I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level".

So I'd happily take this out to 5H

Yes, but playing this style, you should be disciplined and pass 4♠ with the North hand. It is hard to do, but I think you have to.

Arend

[mikeh]

Codo, on Feb 20 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart,  which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too.

Standard treatment with nothing is to pass: not to run. Thus no expert today would dream of pulling with your example hand.

Bidding at the 5-level in this sequence shows an expectation of making: not a fear that they will make.

This S hand is borderline, but I vote for a pass primarily because of the terrible suit.

[benlessard]

close but i pass.


partner X is optionnal. Saying he got enough pts to get a + score.

I would prefer having ♣ instead of ♥ since partner can sometimes correct.


Ben

[000002]

In another post i had indicated that pulling out (to N level) ONLY when u hold a hand with N+1 offensive tricks. In this case it need 6trics to bid 5♥.
pass for lack now,pls.

[Winstonm]

Pass. A bid should be reserved for a hand where I expect to make what I bid and here 5H is too speculative.

Winston

[the saint]

PAss - obvoius best chance of pluss score. Partner averages a strong no-trump on these type of auctions. We rate to take 4-5 tricks on defence. We don't rate to take 11 in play.

This will gain more often than it loses IMO.

[the saint]

PAss - obvoius best chance of pluss score. Partner averages a strong no-trump on these type of auctions. We rate to take 4-5 tricks on defence. We don't rate to take 11 in play.

This will gain more often than it loses IMO.

[mike777]

Pass


hmmm let's see if "FTL" can help on this very tough hand.
13=total tricks
-4=estimated 2 shortest suits, guessing p is 2=4=4=3 shape
+1=estimated working hcp of 22-24.
13-4+1=10 tricks in our longest fit of hearts.

Perhaps p is 2542 shape which is -3 for shape but only 21 working hcp for +0? In this case still only 10 tricks in hearts.

Another way of looking at the hand is perhaps our poor hcp in hearts and duplicated spade values tip the hand to a pass? Close...I can see getting this one wrong at the table under pressure.

[bearmum]

As my P and I play 4SX for penalty (4NT as 3 suit takeout) I trust my partner ans PASS
Occasionally it may not work out but partnership trust is more important than one bad score