[bglover]

You pick up this hand:

Aj10x
A109x
Jx
AKx

Partner opens a dimond... you bid 1 ht, partner rebids 2d.... you bid 2s, partner rebid 3h.

Pick up partner no agreements beyond normal RKC blackwood... how do your proceed?

[inquiry]

Quote

Aj10x
A109x
Jx
AKx

Pard Me
1D 1H
2D 2S
3H 3NT

What is the problem? I showed a good hand with the reverse to 2S. I show only four hearts and clubs stopped with 3NT. The auction isn't over, I have described my hand well. Partner should be in good position to evaulate how to continue. I suspect a lot of time he will pass. But if he is exceptionally good for his 2D bid... who knows?

Ben

[easy]

Hum u have a problem. you have shown a good hand but i think you still have a lot in reserve.You have all of the missing aces and if u bid 4 forcing diamonds pard is going to feel endplayed in the auction and likely to just bid 5d or ,god forbid, pass 4d thinking the bid was not forcing. If you try blackwood over 3h pard is going answer keycard for hearts. That isnt terrible but over partners answer if u attempt to sign off in diamonds pard may think the bid is some sort of control ask in diamonds to go to 7hearts. Also would be nice to know partners style. Would pard have raised 1h to 2h with 3h and 6 mediocre diamonds? If the answer is no my next bid is going to be even more fraught with danger but........

although i have some fear of missing 7d or going down in 6d im going to jump to 6d. At least i know partner wont correct to hearts if i do that.

I think this problem could have been alleviated by employing some minor suit ace asking bid over 2d. My pard and i play 4d is rkb for diamonds. i know others play 4s is the ace asking bid. Im pretty sure that 4c is a splinter for diamonds so that wont do.

[irg20]

Working on the premise that partner would have bid 2H with most hand that are minimum with three card support the 3H either shows 1) 3 poor hearts in a hand with a good diamond suit or 2) Hx in hearts. Unfortunately these handtypes offer wildly different slam potentials so some agrrements would be useful.

In spite of all of this I'll bid 4D and follow it up with RKCB (assuming I get the chance). Subsequent K/Q asks might enable me to find out if pd holds something perfect like KQx xxx AKQxxx x (or other such hands, e.g. KQ xxx AKxxxxx x).

If pd bids 5C or 5D over 4D I'll probably just bid 6D which will hopefully be no worse than a finesse.

If pd passes 4D I'm in the market for a new pd.

[luke warm]

i play 4D as rkc also, but i'm not quite sure there's a problem here either... even if you assume 4nt is rkc for hearts, how bad is that (if you're gonna bid 6nt anyway)? i think the simple rebid by opener makes 3nt the play

[EricK]

Quote

You pick up this hand:

Aj10x
A109x
Jx
AKx

Partner opens a dimond... you bid 1 ht, partner rebids 2d.... you bid 2s, partner rebid 3h.

Pick up partner no agreements beyond normal RKC blackwood... how do your proceed?

Would 4NT on the second round have been natural? IMO it should be, in which case 2S was probably a mistake. However, pick-up partners hate interpreting 4NT as natural.

Unfortunately, 4NT on the third round would undoubtedly be taken as RKB for hearts (again it is probably best to play it as natural - if you want to RKB you can cue-bid clubs first).

I'll bid 4D. But I don't much like it. I have somehow managed to suggest I have a singleton club! Who was it who said that balanced hands should be bid as balanced hands?!

As an aside, does anyone still play the Baron 2NT response to 1x, showing 16+ balanced? It seems to have gone out of fashion, but when I played it, it seemed to lead to good results and I never missed not having a natural 2NT response.

Eric

[Free]

4C, control. If partner bids 4D, I'm going to slam in D through 4NT blackwood...

[inquiry]

Everyone seems to want to FORCE to slam here. Sometimes describing your and and inviting is a better approach. A 3NT rebid is not a signoff on this auction.

However, I will agree that diamonds will be playable. On the auction...

1D - 1H
2D....

The 2D bidder will almost always have 6D. With a 5-4 hand, they would bid 1S or 2C. With a 5-3-3-2 hand, they usually bid 1NT or raise to 2H.

Now as to the issue is 4D forcing on this auction with a "pick up partner no agreements beyond normal RKC blackwood..."

1D - 1H
2D - 2S
3H - 4D
?

I would say you 4D bidders are very, very brave. With my regular partner, 4D here is forcing, because our responder reverse is game force, not quasi game force. But many play this as quasi game force---forcing to 3Nt or 4 of a minor. But many things can go wrong with a 4D bid. The first is partner may take this as a cue-bid for hearts and deny a club stopper, especially if he is looking at only one of the top two diamonds. He will then bid 4Hs and you are not any better off, and will have trouble getting him to cooperate due to his two top club losers.

If I had to guess, I would guess that steve bid 4D with this hand and his partner passed, prompting the posting of it here. Or he bid 4D and he got to 6D (after 4D, if responder doesn't pass, you clearly will end up in 6D regardless of what north holds. Mabye just a direct jump to 6D would be better than 4D). Steve, post the other hands please.

[bglover]

By popular demand, here i partners hand:

Kx
KX
aq10xxx
xxx

I did, in fact bid 3n on similar logic to Ben's and partner did, in fact pass.

Had partner opted for a 4d bid I would have then rkc'd the hand and we reach the makeable slam (both 6n and 6d make when dimond king is right).

IMHO the 2s bid shows significant extras and 3n was a waiting place, and I did not expect partner to pass it. Perhaps partner did not agree, or didn't think his 2ks and an ace (plus q10 in suit) was enough to make a move...

In any case, our opps bid to 6d at the other table and we lost the match by ONE imp because of this hand.

[WrecksVee]

Comment was made that 2S shows significant extras. If so how do you check for heart support (xxx or Hx) or confirm a club stopper? I think both of these are possible needs. However as the auction then went the 3NT implies that neither of these were of interest and therefore extra strength is held. Seems like a reasonable assumption that if I was sure I could bid 3NT I must be unsure that 3NT is the right final contract. As 3NT is reached I therefore I must be wondering about slam. Of course I never seem to have sucessful implication rich auctions even with regular on line partners.....

[bglover]

Well this is why I posted this hand....

Since over 3h preference I now rebid 3n instead of 4h I think partner should deduce that I have 4-4 majors and a BIG hand.

It may be asking a lot of a relatively new partnership with unknown tendencies and styles... but certainly by NOT opting for 4h I think the conclusion can and should be reached.

Now, partner didn't have a great hand point-wise but he did have 4 controls and a semi good suit... I don't know that 1 more move by him is out of line here IF he can back-reason that 2s showed a good hand.

I find it interesting that no one has yet commented on his heart preference with Kx in both majors... I probably would bid 3d hoping partner can bid 3n instead of taking a preference here.... any thoughts?

[the hog]

Its probably a bit easier if opener bids 3C after the 2S bid. Now 4N by you should definitely be quantitative.

[EricK]

Quote

Its probably a bit easier if opener bids 3C after the 2S bid. Now 4N by you should definitely be quantitative.

I agree with this.

Another possibility is for opener to rebid 1NT. Then the bidding may go

1D 1H
1NT 4NT
6D 6NT

Eric

[flytoox]

Though i am a bit late. I still want to say i would jump to 6d after 3h, esp with pick up pd. There is simply no way to explore while assure pd will not pass 4 level minor or misunderstand your bid, whatever. So by Simon's rule, bid what you think you can mk here. pd should have 6card d suit here, 3 card h suit. if you have trump loser, you should be abel to handle ur side suit loser. YOur j,10s can easily provide some extra chance. Even pd is min opener, I will try it.

[inquiry]

The 3H bid would also not have been my choice. But if I had bid 3H, I would surely pass 3NT. Instead of 3H, I would have choosen a 3D rebid, looking for 3NT with a club stopper in partners hand. If I held 3 clubs to the Queen, I might bid 3C over 2S showing partial stopper. After all, there is time to struggle back into hearts when it is right. But with doubleton heart and doubleton spade, it is a magic fit.

Now, this wasn't part of the option, but I have always like Tsar (Thrid suit artificial response) and recently have started using Luis's STSAR (which stands for simple Tsar) which is easier to remember. To read more about Tsar and sTSAR see the following thread.
http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...msg3310#msg3310

This method would have made short work of this hand...

1D-1H
2D-2S (sTsar - per Luis, 100% game force relay)
2N-3C (2NT=6322) (3C=tell me more)
3D-4D (3D = 2-2-6-3 specifically)(4D=trumps, GF)
4H-4N (4H=cue, 4N=RKCB)
5D-6D (5D=1 or 4 keycards)
PAss

Now, knowing you can get a CLUB ruff in your hand, if necessary, the slam seems a much better proposition. You know the only feasible contract will be 6 or 7D, and given the 2D rebid, you think it likely to be only 6D. Now you can whip out blackwood, you can bid a forcing 4D to start cue-bidding, to see if partner has either of the major kings, in which case you can use blackwood agaiin. I prefer the direct 4D raise to seek cue-bid from partner. You could also bid 3S, to see if partner might try 3NT with Qxx of clubs, but that is not nearly as useful as hearing a major suit cue-bid.

Ben

[lenze]

An OLD fashion approach:

1D - 3NT- 6D or 6 NT

I will occasionally miss my 4-4 fit in a major, but I will always be at the right level

[bglover]

Well.. 3n shows 13-15 partner will pass every time... good luck with that...

[lenze]

Quote

Well.. 3n shows 13-15 partner will pass every time... good luck with that...

Not in my system!! 3 NT shows 15-17. Remember I said OLD FASHIONED

PS. Please don't tell me you are one of those naive people that bid 2 NT over a minor (NF) with 11-12 HCP

[easy]

i have 2 objections to bidding 3nt with that hand.

1. the hand is control rich and has lots of t's. its closer to a 19 pt hand than a 17 pt hand. thus 2good for 3nt. However i wouldnt be adverse to 2nt (12-14) followed by 4nt (18/19)

2. Unless pard is aware that you can have a 4 card major you may miss your major suit fit...in imps not a big deal but match points could be bad.

Earlier i hesitated to mention an approach that i often use with hands i feel may have a difficult rebid. Playing 2/1 GF it is often correct to bid 2/1 by passing a 4card major (initially) and creating a game force. On this hand it wouldnt solve the problem because pard will rebid 2D and you wont know if that shows 5 or 6 diamonds. However if the hand had been

AJTx
AT9
Jxx
AKx

I would have chosen a 2C response.

[lenze]

Quote

i have 2 objections to bidding 3nt with that hand.

1. the hand is control rich and has lots of t's. its closer to a 19 pt hand than a 17 pt hand. thus 2good for 3nt. However i wouldnt be adverse to 2nt (12-14) followed by 4nt (18/19)

2. Unless pard is aware that you can have a 4 card major you may miss your major suit fit...in imps not a big deal but match points could be bad.

Earlier i hesitated to mention an approach that i often use with hands i feel may have a difficult rebid. Playing 2/1 GF it is often correct to bid 2/1 by passing a 4card major (initially) and creating a game force. On this hand it wouldnt solve the problem because pard will rebid 2D and you wont know if that shows 5 or 6 diamonds. However if the hand had been

AJTx
AT9
Jxx
AKx

I would have chosen a 2C response.

I certainly agree with your suggestions ( This hand IS too good for 3NT). I, too, with my regular partner would bid 2NT, followed by 4NT.