[Trpltrbl]

What is the pointcount for a rapor 1NT overcall ?

[inquiry]

Trpltrbl, on Jan 29 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

What is the pointcount for a rapor 1NT overcall ?

What is the point count for a simple overcall? A jump overcall? A takeout double? A cue-bid?

The answer to those questions is the same as the answer to your question I think. It depends upon your style and your agreement. For me, I treat raptor the same as any overcall.

[chicken]

i treat it slightly weaker than a regular overcall because of the distributional advantage, but i know people playing it unlimited.

[Kalvan14]

Like all very descriptive bids, Raptor should be limited in strength. The more defined the hand is, the better partner can assess the combined values, and pre-empt (or anyway reach the best level).
Alternatively, I could see raptor as similar to 2-ways Michaels: weakish, or very strong (but not intermediate)

[Gerben42]

For me, it denies a hand strong enough to overcall the minor and then rebid the major. I've seen people bid it on ♣AKQxxx and ♠ KQJx, that's too much!

The minimum strength is somewhat below what would be considered a minimum 2m overcall because of the 2-places-to-play strategy.

[Chamaco]

I think it should be a minimum opener, say, (9)10-15, but like most 2-suited overcalls, I prefer to define it in terms of losers (which is only a simplified method to account for shape and honors concentration in long suits).
That means that the more shape we have, the less hcp we need.

7-5 losers is the range I prefer.

KQxx- xx- AKJxxx-x is a max
Axxx-x-KJTxxx-xx is a minimum non vuln

When the shape is 54 (especially with no shortness) rather than 64, that requires about a Q/K more in hcp strength.

[fred]

For whatever it's worth, I think the Raptor 1NT overcall is a seriously bad convention regardless of how many points or losers you have.

You simply can't live without the natural 1NT overcall. Those that claim that you can stuff this into the takeout double without any adverse consequences are deluding themselves (and others) in my opinion.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Blofeld]

fred, on Jan 31 2006, 09:43 AM, said:

You simply can't live without the natural 1NT overcall. Those that claim that you can stuff this into the takeout double without any adverse consequences are deluding themselves (and others) in my opinion.

While I won't actually stand up for Raptor (I haven't had anywhere near enough experience of it), I think you're being a little unfair to its proponents, Fred. They don't claim that they can put the natural 1NT overcalls into the takeout double without any adverse consequences: they just believe that the downsides are outweighed by the advantages on the hands that get to bid 1NT.

[Al_U_Card]

Next thing you know, they'll be suggesting that dbl should show a 2 suited takeout (à la Raptor) and that 1NT should be a 3-suited takeout and double and bid NT shows just 15-18........(shhhhh I hear that Homeland Security is looking at this as a terrorist plot..... )

[fred]

Blofeld, on Jan 31 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

fred, on Jan 31 2006, 09:43 AM, said:

You simply can't live without the natural 1NT overcall. Those that claim that you can stuff this into the takeout double without any adverse consequences are deluding themselves (and others) in my opinion.

While I won't actually stand up for Raptor (I haven't had anywhere near enough experience of it), I think you're being a little unfair to its proponents, Fred. They don't claim that they can put the natural 1NT overcalls into the takeout double without any adverse consequences: they just believe that the downsides are outweighed by the advantages on the hands that get to bid 1NT.

I am sure you are correct that some proponents of Raptor think about this in the (proper) way that you do. However, whenever I have had this discussion with Raptor players they have dismissed this point as if it were a non-issue. Maybe I have been unlucky in the choice of people I have discussed this with but...

In my experience, almost all bridge players (including me) have difficulty evaluating their pet conventions objectively. It is much easier (both mentally and emotionally) to notice truimphs when a convention is used then to notice the problems that are caused by giving up on a useful natural bid.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pclayton]

fred, on Jan 31 2006, 06:43 AM, said:

For whatever it's worth, I think the Raptor 1NT overcall is a seriously bad convention regardless of how many points or losers you have.

You simply can't live without the natural 1NT overcall. Those that claim that you can stuff this into the takeout double without any adverse consequences are deluding themselves (and others) in my opinion.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I've played Overcall Structure (most aspects of it) for about 6 years now which includes a 1N overcall for takeout.

Part of the system is a "power double" which shows 15+; generally balanced. Power doubles have a big advantage over a natural 1N overcall:

A. The Opening bidder is on lead, which is a positional advantage;

B. When partner is busted, we get to play a suit at the one level, instead of trying to make 7 tricks in 1N or 8 in a suit contract.

C. Occasionally, you get to punish their one of a minor when pard converts the power double with a moderate trump holding.

The biggest disadvantage I've seen is the 1N overcall for takeout. Sometimes we will step into a misfit auction and get creamed at the 2 level, where those that make a takeout double may get to play at the one level.

Other than that, I can't see any advantage to a natural 1N overcall as compared to a power double.

[awm]

There is a sort of funny advantage to the 1NT overcall in competitive auctions. When my RHO opens, my 1NT overcall normally shows length/values in the suit he bid. This is especially true because I tend to make takeout doubles with suitable hands even if bidding 1NT would also be okay.

Because of this, when the opponents have a suit fit, it is often not in the suit they opened. This is true much more often than it would otherwise be! Bidding 1NT makes it hard for opponents to find this suit fit, while making it relatively easy for partner to find our fit if it's in a suit where he holds five or more.

On the other hand, if I have a takeout double this usually implies shortness in the suit RHO opened (okay, we all make off-shape doubles sometimes). Thus the opponents suit fit is more likely to be in the suit they opened... so we're unlikely to preempt them out of finding their fit (of course we may still be able to make it hard for them to bid to the proper level, or just outbid them because our suit is higher or we have better fitting hands).

I think this is actually a fairly good argument in favor of natural 1NT overcalls rather than "takeout" or "raptor" style overcalls.

On the other hand, while I don't play raptor myself, I have a lot of experience playing Max Hardy's structure of top+bottom cuebids and equal-level correction doubles. Obviously there are some losses because we have no Michaels cuebid and our doubles are sometimes off-shape. However, the hands with 4 cards in the higher suit and 5+ in the lower appear to be very frequent patterns, and being able to show these efficiently is a pretty big win.

[cherdano]

Phil, I don't think you can compare overcall structure to normal overcalling+raptor. The difference is that playing raptor, the double is "normal takeout or any 15+ hand with no suit to bid", whereas in the overcall structure, it is always a strong hand. That seems a pretty big difference to me.

For what it's worth, I have hardly played raptor, but I have had big successes with this 1NT-is-a-natural-overcall convention, like finding games we wouldn't have found otherwise...

Arend

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Jan 31 2006, 12:07 PM, said:

Phil, I don't think you can compare overcall structure to normal overcalling+raptor. The difference is that playing raptor, the double is "normal takeout or any 15+ hand with no suit to bid", whereas in the overcall structure, it is always a strong hand. That seems a pretty big difference to me.

For what it's worth, I have hardly played raptor, but I have had big successes with this 1NT-is-a-natural-overcall convention, like finding games we wouldn't have found otherwise...

Arend

Arend: I just mentioned Overcall Structure because Fred mentioned he disliked any 1N overcall that wasn't natural.

I'll leave the Raptor 1N (and its associated agreements) discussion to others.

[whereagles]

While I prefer to play a 1NT overcall as natural, I think it's perfectly playable to use it as artificial.

Why is that? Because of the simple fact that many of us play that a 1NT overcall guarantees a stopper. With 15-17 and no stopper, you either a) double or b ) pass, hoping to be able to bid something later. If we can live with passing/doubling on a balanced 15-17 with NO stopper, we sure can also live with passing/doubling on a 15-17 hand with stopper.

So.. unless Fred overcalls 1NT with no stopper on a regular basis, I think his argumentation isn't 100% consistent

[han]

A former f2f partner was also a big fan of the natural 1NT overcall, and for a while we played several 2-suited jump overcalls, for example over 1D:

2D = 4+ spades, 5+ hearts.
2H = 4+ hearts, 5+ clubss.
2S = 4+ spades, 5+ clubs.

All of these bids showed the similar strenth as a 2-level overcall. When the higher ranking suit was stronger we just made a simple overcall. Does anybody know, are these called Roman overcalls? This worked well when we had the 2-suiters, but we gave up several weak jump overcalls, which is a big loss in my opinion.

Currently I'm playing Misho-raptor with Ben, but it hasn't come up a lot. The one time that I remember it coming up I made a bad bid after Ben overcalled 1NT, so we got a bad score. I don't recall having the strong notrump since we play M-raptor, it hasn't been long enough.

Yesterday I was playing online and the natural 1NT overcall came up twice in a row. The first time the auction went pass-(1D)-1NT-(p)-3NT, making easily for a good score, and the second time it went (1D)-1NT-all pass, again a good spot. Sometimes simple bridge is also good bridge.

[Chamaco]

I'll try to make some points about what are my belief in this area, partly because I am currently convinced about this, partly because I'll be happy to hear comments and criticisms.

I do think that losing 1NT is a loss, *when the right hand comes up*.
On the other hand, sometimes, even overcalling 1NT with the "right hand" goes for a number.

However, there are also hands where having available Raptor wins.
And indeed, when the Raptor shape is dealt for our side, it hardly goes for too big a number, since the partner of the overcaller usually can evaluate the safest partscore to run to.

It seems to me that evaluating the cost-benefit in the choice of a convention, we should assess the frequency of occurence of the 2 hand types, and the magnitude of the gains obtained from the 2 choices.

I think someone made some statistics and found that the Raptor hand is very slightly more frequent than the natural 1NT hand.

Concerning the magnitude of the gains/losees, perhaps I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the natural 1NT wins in those hands where it helps finding 3NT, and Raptor wins in finding best partscores.

So I am led to think that in MP events, Raptor should score better, whereas at Teams, the natural 1NT might have an advantage.

[tysen2k]

Has anyone ever played RUNT (Really Unusual NT) where the 1NT overcall is basically 0-10 takeout?

I've been playing it for a few months now and I love it. I'm wondering if anyone else has had any experiences with it.

Tysen

[Gerben42]

I've played Raptor for a lot of deals, mostly at IMPs, and have been on both sides of the medal.

There are some negative swings because we didn't have a natural 1NT. On the other hand there are just as many swings the other way around because the other table didn't find their fit.

The total balance? I have no idea. But one thing I do know: I like to play this way.

[Walddk]

I agree with Fred.

♠ AJ5
♥ KQ2
♦ KJ94
♣ K103

RHO opens 1♠. Playing Raptor, you will either have to pass or double. Let's pretend that you double (either a normal take-out double or 15-17 balanced), and you get 2♣ from partner.

The consequence is that you have to pass now. Reluctantly probably, but pass you must, because you can't risk bidding 2NT opposite what might be a bust. In my view overcalling a natural 1NT is better for three important reasons:

1. There is no ambiguity as to the overcall (as opposed to double in Raptor).
2. You are one step lower.
3. Your NT-system is on, including your wriggle if 1NT gets doubled.

Those that claim that you can stuff this into the takeout double without any adverse consequences are deluding themselves (and others) in my opinion, Fred writes.

Well put.

Roland