[Kaapo]

Paul Marston's MOSCITO 2005 has 2-over-1 responses forcing for 1 round. So maybe next step is to make them forcing to game?

Here it is! Mosci2/1 aka Moscitoo aka Major-Oriented Strong Club Implementing Two-Over-One GF. It shares the basic opening structure with real MOSCITO (1♣ 15+, transfer openings) but the responses are kind of reversed: whereas the original reserves the relay for invite+ hands, this version has it for invite or worse hands. And 2/1 responses are, of course, forcing to game.

So what's the point? Guess it's a lot simpler to learn. Might be legal at same place where the real one is not (well, probly not)? And, whilst it might not be as effective, I think it's quite fun to play (at least with me against two me's).

Responses to 1♦ showing 4+♥:
1♥ = 4+♠, f1, about 8+ points
1♠ = puppet to 1NT, either to
- play 1NT (8-11 balanced), or
- bid 2x as invitational, ca. 11-14
1NT = puppet to 2♣, either to
- play 2♣ or correct to 2♦ (5+ cards, about 7-10), or
- show a goodish raise to 2♥ (9-11)
2♣/2♦ = natural GF. Opener bids 2♥ to show 4♥.

Over 1♥, showing 4+♠:
1♠ = puppet to 1NT, either to
- play 1NT (8-11 balanced), or
- bid 2x as invitational (11-14)
1NT = puppet to 2♣, eiter to
- pass 2♣ or correct to 2♦/♥ (5+ cards, about 7-10), or
- show a goodish raise to 2♠ (9-11)
2♣/♦/♥ = natural GF (3+/4+/5+ cards, respective). Opener bids
- 2♠ = 4♠
- 2NT = 6+♠, 1-suiter
- rest = 5+♠, as in 2/1.

Dunno if this is worth anything. Just came up with it one day. And of course, some one else may have had similar thoughts decades ago.

[Free]

I don't like to give up the relays. I'm also not fond of Marston's 2/1 forcing bids...

[hrothgar]

Kaapo, on Feb 2 2006, 08:02 PM, said:

Paul Marston's MOSCITO 2005 has 2-over-1 responses forcing for 1 round. So maybe next step is to make them forcing to game?

Here it is! Mosci2/1 aka Moscitoo aka Major-Oriented Strong Club Implementing Two-Over-One GF. It shares the basic opening structure with real MOSCITO (1♣ 15+, transfer openings) but the responses are kind of reversed: whereas the original reserves the relay for invite+ hands, this version has it for invite or worse hands. And 2/1 responses are, of course, forcing to game.

No, No, a thousand times NO!

This is an abomination.
I pronounce it anathema.
its EVIL. Do you hear me.... EVIL...

In all seriousness, I think that you have things ass backwards...

MOSCITO's transfer based opening structure isn't an end in and off itself. The transfers were adopted to accomodate the use of relays:

Transfers align the level of the constructive opening with the number of hand types bundled into the opening. Accordingly, the level of the opening also maps nicely onto frequency.

Equally significant, the first step transfer (hopefully) ensures that the relay asker declares the contract.

If you give up the relay responses, you should also abandon the transfer opening. Your constructive openings will be much more preemptive. Equally significant, you won't risk playing in those juicy 2-1 trump fits...

[Kaapo]

hrothgar, on Feb 2 2006, 02:17 PM, said:

If you give up the relay responses, you should also abandon the transfer opening.  Your constructive openings will be much more preemptive.  Equally significant, you won't risk playing in those juicy 2-1 trump fits...

I do agree, but I don't find it very easy to build a 2-over-1 system over natural 1M-openings which may include a major-minor 2-suiter with lengths either way. I'm not sure you should build a system like that at all, but even if 2-over-1 respnses were just F1, it seems quite hard to separate different openers. The extra step helps.

[benlessard]

DUPLICATION OF INFORMATION

A misunderstood key concept of relay bidding and system designing.


Or why in my system i don't have these problems and why i think Moscito is a dead end.




here are a quick sum up of the 3 pts ranges.


opener-----------------------responder

-----------------------------no G---INV----GF

A-----9-11---------------0-12----14-----15+
B-----12-14--------------0-9-----11-----12+
C-----15-17--------------0-6-----8-------9+
D-----18-20--------------0-3-----5-------6+
E------21-23-------------
E------GF-----------------


Here a strong C setup

15+----------------??-------7-8----------9+
10-14--------------0-9-----10-13-------14+



Lets says that your opening bid is Z showing 5S or more.

If your opening show


15+ FG is easy---inv isnt easy---stopping below game isnt (you will need a 2nd negative or a way to show xtra values (18-22)

if your opening show 10-14 ----stopping below game is easy------inv is a nightmare you gonna often play in the 3 level----forcing to game isnt easy.


if your opening show 12-22
stopping below game is tough-------inv is a nightmare you gonna often play in the 3 level.-----forcing to game is tough.


if your openings show

12-14 or 18-20

stopping below game easy------------inv easy-----------easy.


15-17 or GF

stopping below game easy------------inv easy-----------easy.


The key is as long as range do not exeed 3 pts

AT LEAST 1 WILL KNOW IF THERE IS ENOUGH VALUE FOR GAME BUT THE OTHER WILL BE CLUELESS.





Example

Z--- showing 5s+

XYZ- showing 5s+

if Z is 10-14 and responder say im INV (11-13) youre both still in the dark by at least 2pts


XYZ is 15+ ----and responder say im INV (6-8)----youre both still in the dark by at least 2pts


But lets says

Z is 11-13 or 17-19 or 22+ responder with (11-12) says im inv ---- now opener knows but i still dont know

XYZ is 14-16 or 20-22 says im inv with 9-10 pts he can place the contract.


Lets put it more simply i dont need to know if my partner is strong or super strong with these case he'll know what to do (strong hands handle themselves) . What i want is that his lower range is limited by 2 or 3 pts.





1c! ----1d! GF


If you play 1d as GF. the both players knows its GF so there is a duplication of information. So you wont be able to relay with weak hands and you will not bid 1d often meaning the distribution of youre response are poor.


lets says that you have a balanced hand and want to relay as much as possible.

Like 1d is a complete relay and 0+ Therefore you will be able to bid 1d very often.

if 1c is 15-17 responder will know there is game or not game but 1the opener will be in the dark.

if opener is GF responder will be in the dark while opener will know

There is no DUPLICATION OF INFORMATION only 1 of the pair know if there is enough value for game.




if 1Y is 12-14 or 18-22 responder with 0-5 pts know there is no game or very unlikely. with 6-11 game is unlikely but responder can relay to spot a betterpartscore or to protect the 18-22 hands (in wich case opener know that we are in GF) . With 12+ he can relay to game or to slam if opener is 18-22



1W---1X----1Y is 15-17 or GF responder 0-8 game is unlikely but responder can relay to spot a better partscore or to protect the 22+. With 9+ he can relay to game or to slam if openere is 22+


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
playing nat methods with a gadget


1d--------1S

you have 2 ways of showing spades.

2h----and 2s

wich is wich ?

best combo is that

2h is 12-14 weak or 18+ GF
2s is 15-17 inv

this is much better then

2s weak 12-14
2h 15+





Same thing with michaels Q-bids

1h---2h
Weak or very strong
having a 10 pts range there is stupid.


You always have to separate
inv hand to weak hand otherwise youre range is too big and partner with inv values will be clueless.




In competition


1c -----3s------- ??

see how its easy if 15-17 or GF with 7 pts you can pass and partenr with GF will reopen or 15-17 will have an easy pass.


if 1c is 15+ responder with 7-8 will have a problem.

and if he pass opener with 17-18 will have a problem


1h-----3s--------

10-14 you have and 11-12 no idea what to do.


12-14 or 18+

no trouble at all --- if partner is 18-22 partner is expect to reopen just like he would if he had opened playing strong clubs excpet that you know his suit and you know he is limited to 22 pts.



1c---(3H)----pass-----(pass)

3s---(pass)---??


limited 15-17 GF partner is 15-17 with at least 6 good spades

15+ unclear he could be quite strong imho.





1c---(3H)----pass-----(pass)

4s---(pass)---??


limited 15-17 or GF partner is GF with at least 6 good spades and didnt want to play 3hx




1c 15+


4s could be streched by a bit.










Handling INV hands and 15-17 pts ranges opening is the cornerstone of a good bidding system IMHO because once they are out of the way you can relay all the way. And in competive auction you have a killer edge.











Ben

[mike777]

"AT LEAST 1 WILL KNOW IF THERE IS ENOUGH VALUE FOR GAME BUT THE OTHER WILL BE CLUELESS"

Points do not take tricks. Points do not tell you if you have enough value for game.

to quote Karen McCallum:

" ..in all my years I have played bridge I have never seen a point take a trick!...Stop relying on the high-card point count as your primary guide to the value of your hand...."

[Free]

Lol, I was about to say something similar!

Points mean nothing. I've bid and made 7♥ with 27 combined HCP (and a wasted ♠Q), and I've stayed out of small slam with 31 combined HCP to make 11 tricks without any possibility to make a 12th.

MOSCITO requires good handevaluation, that's true, but if you have it you'll reach your good contracts. That's the main reason why I don't recommend the system to beginners, not because of it's 'complexity'!

Inviting is easy btw, except when it's in the suit which means a relay. Occasionally with 5M and 4♣ you'll get an immediate 3-level rebid showing exact shape and you're not able to invite. In any situation where you can't invite, just rely on your or partners declarer play and bid game...
Partscore battle is very good imo, since we can show 4M-5m, and opps can't. In competition we got to 2m on a few occasions which was the winning action. Partscore should only be playable, but we get out of our poor NT contracts when we have one.

[benlessard]

When people try to give me hint and start by quoting Karen McCallum i can't help it i just must laugh a little.

Everybody who had some bridge experience knows this. A strong jump shift is a hand strong enough to play game facing a response its not 18-22 but for simplification everybody write 18-22.

12-14 means a minimum opener one that will refuse a limit raise

(of course some 14 when fit is discovered goes up)

15-17 mean between a minimum and a strong jump shift. one that will clearly accept a limit raise and might make a move on a constructive raise and its a hand where you strive to rebid a 3c minor on 1nt forcing even if you have 6 in your suit.

18-22 mean a strong jump shift

22+ mean a hand that is willing to play game and is afraid of a pass if it were open 1 in a suit.

happy now ?

i can do it in LTC if you want

---

1c  GF or 15-17 (bal or 5M) or clubs 16+     1h (5h unbal 0+)

here im know my hand went for 20+ to GF.

2d! ----------2h forced
3D! --------- showing 5c 4h and a d fragment without spades void

so im 1426 or 1435. 22+

----------------------3h h keycard (its in H because ive showed 4 and my partner 5)
3nt (3)--------------4s   K ♦ ?
5C yes + no extra (i know my Q♣ is useless because partner didnt ask for my K♣

------------------------6h

the worse hand i could have is

x
kxxx
AKJ
AKQJx



or

x
kxxx
AK
AKQT9x


both case slam inst great but its not too bad.

[Free]

What's your point with the previous hand? I mean, MOSCITO relays are way more accurate than your bidding, and know we have a good slam, but not grand.

With Toothbrush:

1♣ - 1♦ (negative, will become semipositive later)
1♥ - 2♣
2♦ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♠ (3-5-4-1)
4♥ - 4♠ (1 keycard in function of ♥)
4NT - 5♦ (♥Q and ♦AK/Q)
6♥

With Richard we use semi-positives, so we'll be a few steps lower. Still responder knows about ♦Q, ♥Q and a black A.

[EDIT]: error in bidding sequence

[MickyB]

Free, on Feb 3 2006, 09:35 AM, said:

Points mean nothing. I've bid and made 7♥ with 27 combined HCP (and a wasted ♠Q), and I've stayed out of small slam with 31 combined HCP to make 11 tricks without any possibility to make a 12th.

And just the other day, I played a 22HCP 90% grand.

I played it in 2♣, but that's not the point.

[MarceldB]

Free, on Feb 3 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

What's your point with the previous hand?  I mean, MOSCITO relays are way more accurate than your bidding, and know we have a good slam, but not grand. 

4♣ - 4♠ (5 slampoints)
4NT - 5♠ (1/2 tophonours ♦ and ♠, exactly 1 tophonour ♥)
6♥

with
♠KQx
♥Qxxxx
♦Qxxx
♣x

= 5SP too, same 5♠ bid ?

[Free]

Yes Marcel, I was wrong, should ask Keycards because it takes us too high. Zzz... See the above post

[hrothgar]

benlessard, on Feb 3 2006, 10:11 AM, said:

DUPLICATION OF INFORMATION

A misunderstood key concept of relay bidding and system designing.


Or why in my system i don't have these problems and why i think Moscito is a dead end.

I have NO idea what you are trying to say

Could you please provide a more succinct summary...

[mike777]

"When people try to give me hint and start by quoting Karen McCallum i can't help it i just must laugh a little."


OK, When I quoted Barry Crane I got a lot of grief from all of the players that love to bid 70% grand slams.

"Only bid Grand Slams at MP or short IMP matches if you can count 13 tricks."

This next one should really stir up the pot.

Karen McCallum quoting Bob Hamman in Bridge Today Magazine.

"...heard Bob Hamman say that if he never bid another slam, he'd probably be doing better than he does now...."

[benlessard]

Duplication of information is when both players knows the same information.

1d  1h  1♠

playing natural
both 1h and 1s show natural suits. Therefore the frequency of 1d-1h-1s is low and the information is duplicated all the kibitzers know East has 4h and know west have 4s and 4D (or rarely 3).


But if 1h si natural or artificial GF. If opener have a very good he will know that the 1h is nat while if he had a weak hand its possible that the 1h is !art! GF.


The amount of information of a bid is limited by the alternatives availables. The more the info is duplicated the less alternativess you got and the info you got is duplicated therefore this is far from optimum if you're playing relays.


The fact is playing natural method the sharing and duplication of information is crucial because both player will exercise their judgement based on all previous info to place the final contract.


However in relay since the key is sharing the minimum of info so you have more space= maximum alternatives so the the relayee bids have maximum meanings.


Another way to look at it is that at the end of an auction the amount of information is limited by the the possibility of alternative there was if the contract stop at 4S
There was enough space for a certain amount of info it is not infinite.


So there is 2 pattern

west gave a lot of info ---east very little
west gave 50% east 50%

and all in between especially when you swithc capitaincy.


So each time the relayer give info you're losing efficiency if you want to relay all the way.


So for example


1C (show strenght) ----1 Z (show strenght youre duplicating some info)

1d ( show a suit)----1Z show a suit youre duplicating some info


1c (show streght) -----1Z (show asuit) your are duplicating info but its less annoying since one will sthere are not on the same categories.


1c (show streght) -----1d (show nothing) youre are not duplicating info.





The previous hand was one that ive just bid earlier that day and is 1 that would show a revaluation of the hand. It aint no tough slam to bid.



bidding could also go



1c-------1h (5h unbal) 0+
1s !-----2c (mean 5h+4D) 0+
2s (GF)---3c ( B )
3d forced!-------3h 3541
3s H keyc-------3nt 1
4c Q♥?--------4h yes but no K♦
4nt Q♦?-------5d yes but no Q♣


At the end we check the all the info available


West bids
1 show a better then minimum
2 ---nothing
3--- GF
4--nothing
5-- heart tolerance
6---show he doesnt hold the Q♥
7-- show he doesnt have the Q♦ (and that hes not interested in the K♣)
8-- to play


1---5h
2---4d
3--- a !art! shape showing
4--- 3541
5--- 1 keyc
6--- Q♥ no K♦
7-- Q♦ no Q♣


now you make the list of duplication of info.

WEST
Showing a h tol is duplication since you bid 6h to play.
showing a better then minimum then showing GF.
By asking for specific card we tend to show disinterested in other.

EAST
none



No you try to find alternatives

maybe asking for aces instead of keycard is better...
but later you'll need a way to stop in H

opening 15+ then showing GF is duplication
but having a GF opening at the 1 level is unpractical

By asking for specific card we tend to show disinterested in other.
yes but asking for card you have or dont need is worse.



Hope that is clearer for you.


Try to bid the hand natural way and you'll see the duplication of info is huge. And that the info is split between the 2 players.


Ben