[badderzboy]

I'm trying to create a Lebensohl FD file - what does a direct 3♣ mean over 2♦♥♠?

Thanks

Steve

[Free]

natural forcing I think

[Chamaco]

I think "standard treatment" is invitational nonforcing, but IMO it makes sense to play it as forcing over pard's strong Notrump.

I think it is more debatable how to handle the direct 3C bid responding to pard's takeout double over a weak 2.

[pigpenz]

are we talking about lebensol after 1NT opening or in response to a double of a weak two bid?

1NT bid 3♣
shows by agreement either forcing or invitational

[kenberg]

Better Bidding with Bergen, volume 2, page 77 (in the Lebensohl section):
"After an auction like 1NT-2S (overcall) a new suit at the three level is natural and forcing."

I see no reason to go contrary to this.

Ken

[Double !]

Back around the summer of 1970 when I first started to hear about something called lebensohl, my understanding was that the whole purpose of the convention was to differentiate between bids at the 3-level when the opps interfered that were forcing and those that were nonforcing. The common decision at that time was to make all suit bids at the 3-level forcing, and that responder needed to bid 2NT (relay to 3C) and then pass or bid another suit to play at 3 of that suit. Then, at some point, along came rubensohl where, and I don't know the full convention, I believe that 3-level bids are transfers. This seems like a good idea because responder gets a second bid. I am not sure if my description of rubensohl is correct or not, but i am confident about my explanation of lebensohl.

So, playing leb., all new suits at the 3-level are forcing.
Hope this helps.

DHL

[csdenmark]

badderzboy, on Jan 24 2006, 04:31 PM, said:

I'm trying to create a Lebensohl FD file - what does a direct 3♣ mean over 2♦♥♠?

Thanks

Steve

To create a file for lebensohl over 2♦ dont make much sense.

Over weak 2♥♠ - you need to DBL to go into Lebensohl.

2♥ - DBL - 3♣ = 10+cP, Trans -> 3♦

2♠ - DBL - 3♣ = 10+cP, Trans -> 3♦


In my file for Meckwell Club you can grab the files for both.

[hrothgar]

[quote name='csdenmark' date='Jan 25 2006, 02:14 AM'] [quote name='badderzboy' date='Jan 24 2006, 04:31 PM']I'm trying to create a Lebensohl FD file - what does a direct 3[cl] mean over 2[di][he][sp]?

2[he] - DBL - 3[cl] = 10+cP, Trans -> 3[di]

2[sp] - DBL - 3[cl] = 10+cP, Trans -> 3[di]


In my file for Meckwell Club you can grab the files for both. [/quote]
Regardless of whether this is part of Meckwell Club, it is decided NOT Lebensohl...

[pigpenz]

i have played that new suits at the three level are forcing and 3♦♥♠ were invitational...only passing 3♣ could be done on the weak hand with clubs.

[csdenmark]

Regardless of whether this is part of Meckwell Club, it is decided NOT Lebensohl...
I refer to Lebensohl acc. to Ron Andersen "The Lebensohl Convention complete in contract bridge" 1987, Devyn Press Inc., Louisville, Kentucky. This is from page 61.

Meckwell use Lebensohl over premptive openings but in their cc they don't describe if they have modifications. Therefore I assume they use an authorized version like the one I use.

Thats the context Richard.

[Kalvan14]

[quote name='hrothgar' date='Jan 24 2006, 06:20 PM'] [quote name='csdenmark' date='Jan 25 2006, 02:14 AM'] [quote name='badderzboy' date='Jan 24 2006, 04:31 PM']I'm trying to create a Lebensohl FD file - what does a direct 3[cl] mean over 2[di][he][sp]?

2[he] - DBL - 3[cl] = 10+cP, Trans -> 3[di]

2[sp] - DBL - 3[cl] = 10+cP, Trans -> 3[di]


In my file for Meckwell Club you can grab the files for both. [/QUOTE]
Regardless of whether this is part of Meckwell Club, it is decided NOT Lebensohl... [/quote]
I do play a similar treatment: (2M)-X-(P)-3 any (excluding only 3M) is natural and forcing; passing through 2NT, puppets pard to bid 3[cl] (but, since the double is unlimited he can refuse the relay, obviously) and shows a weak hand.

The same thing happens when the bidding is: (1M)-X-(2M): 3 any is forcing, 2NT puppets 3[cl].

I always describe it as "Lebensohl after 2M".

Finally, I play "Lebensohl after a reverse", where a raise is forcing, while advancer bids 2NT to indicate a sub-minimum hand, asking opener to bid 3[cl] without extras.

[kenberg]

As Pig indicated earlier there is some possibility of confusion here. If the opening bid is 2 D,H,S then an immediate bid of 3C has nothing to do with Lebensohl, as far as I understand it. It simply shows clubs and a decent hand, with partnership discussion of the meaning of decent hand. Therefore I took the liberty of assuming we were speaking of 1NT-(2D,H,S)-3C. If I was jumping to incorrect conclusions, I apologize.

Ken

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jan 25 2006, 03:19 AM, said:

Regardless of whether this is part of Meckwell Club, it is decided NOT Lebensohl...
I refer to Lebensohl acc. to Ron Andersen "The Lebensohl Convention complete in contract bridge" 1987, Devyn Press Inc., Louisville, Kentucky. This is from page 61.

Meckwell use Lebensohl over premptive openings but in their cc they don't describe if they have modifications. Therefore I assume they use an authorized version like the one I use.

Thats the context Richard.

I don't have a copy of Anderson's little pamphlet.

With this said and done, I am looking at a copy of Lindkvist and have Kearse handy as well. Standard Lebensohl does uses 2NT as a puppet to 3♣. New suits are natural and forcing. 3♣ is decided NOT a transfer.

There are methods (very good methods) based on transfers where 3♣ is used as a transfer to Diamonds. However, this method is referred to as RUBENSOHL.

[yoder]

My understanding of basic Lebensohl is this:

After 1N 2Z (where Z is any suit)

- 2 of any suit is to play.
- 3 of any suit except Z is game forcing.
- 3N directly is to play, denying a stopper in Z.
- 3Z directly is stayman for any unbid majors denying a stopper in Z.
- 2N asks for a bid of 3C, after which

-- 3 of any suit lower ranked than Z is to play.
-- 3 of any suit higher ranked than Z is invitational.
-- 3Z is stayman showing a stopper in Z.
-- 3N is to play, showing a stopper in Z.
-- Pass shows weak hand in clubs (obviously).


This all works beautifully except in the case where Z = clubs. In that case, you cannot distinguish between the two cases of stayman (showing or denying the stopper in clubs), so 1N 2C 3C is still stayman, but does not deny or show a stopper in clubs.

Note also that there cannot be invitations made in suits lower ranked than Z. So 1N 2H 3D is forcing whereas 1N 2H 2N P 3C P 3D is to play. But 1N 2H 2S is to play, 1N 2H 3S is forcing, and 1N 2H 2N P 3C P 3S is invitational.

Thus the answer to the original question of what 1N 2H 3C means in basic Lebensohl would be that 3C is game forcing.

[csdenmark]

yoder, on Jan 28 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

My understanding of basic Lebensohl is this:

After 1N 2Z (where Z is any suit)

- 2 of any suit is to play.
- 3 of any suit except Z is game forcing.
- 3N directly is to play, denying a stopper in Z.
- 3Z directly is stayman for any unbid majors denying a stopper in Z.
- 2N asks for a bid of 3C, after which

  -- 3 of any suit lower ranked than Z is to play.
  -- 3 of any suit higher ranked than Z is invitational.
  -- 3Z is stayman showing a stopper in Z.
  -- 3N is to play, showing a stopper in Z.
  -- Pass shows weak hand in clubs (obviously).


This all works beautifully except in the case where Z = clubs.  In that case, you cannot distinguish between the two cases of stayman (showing or denying the stopper in clubs), so 1N 2C 3C is still stayman, but does not deny or show a stopper in clubs.

Note also that there cannot be invitations made in suits lower ranked than Z.  So 1N 2H 3D is forcing whereas 1N 2H 2N P 3C P 3D is to play.  But 1N 2H 2S is to play, 1N 2H 3S is forcing, and 1N 2H 2N P 3C P 3S is invitational.

Thus the answer to the original question of what 1N 2H 3C means in basic Lebensohl would be that 3C is game forcing.

It is a bit more complicated than that but it looks like you are near. Whether there really are other versions than described by Ron Andersen I dont know. But here the links:


Lebensohl - interference over 1NT opening

Lebensohl after preemptive open

Lebensohl over Interference

[kenrexford]

For what it's worth, or if anyone cares, I recently realized that my main partner and I have a non-competitive structure over 1NT that applies well when the interference is 2D, which you MAY want to consider.

After 2D, we use the following structure:

X = Jacoby Transfer to hearts; all continuations normal.
2H = Transfer to spades
2S = Transfer to clubs.
2NT = "Transfer" to diamonds, meaning asking for a diamond stopper. Opener pre-accepts (we play weaker) with ONE stopper -- 3D then asks for a bail suit. 3D shows two stoppers, and new calls deny a stopper.
3C = Puppet Stayman
3D = Majors (55)
3H = 3145/3154
3S = 1345/1354
3NT = To play (stoppers)

Same structure whenever 2D shows diamonds. If diamonds plus a higher unknown, same structure. If diamonds plus hearts, X is negative (weak Stayman), all else systems on, but you "show" hearts in many auctions to show stoppers.

BTW, systems on as if Opened 2NT (Puppet, etc.) works well over 1NT-2NT(minors), as well.