[Rhutobello]

Hi, and agein thx to all you clever brigdeplayer out there helping beg.- int club.

After attending a couple of sessions with comment from you on our play, I came up with a thought (hopfully not my last ;D) Why not turn it around a bit.

Let say 4 adv- exp players take a board in beg-int club. When they play they have to comment every step they do to the kibitzer.

Exsample :
North 1 club.
East: since noth say 1 club he must have and I have y I will respond z.
South: since p open he must have xy point and the best way to show him my card is to say wx.
West :Since all my compenions have talked so much I think I say pass (just kidding)

I think this can be very informative for us, and since brigde is a game that have no ""exsact recepie" I think we can pick up many a good idea for our own development ;D

Agein, it is just a idea.....and my name is not Einstein :

Have a nice day

[inquiry]

I think something like this is already planned. The hallway has plans for three experts and one advanced player to do just as you suggest in the B/I lounge, and rumor has it is that one of the experts is really world class. With players describing their thought processes as the hand progresses....

But this is probably a good idea that should happen more often anyway. A couple of things to note, experts often don't agree on what to bid on any given hand (have you ever read the bidding problem hands and the so many different answers), and everyone makes mistakes at bridge (experts just a lot fewer), so keep all that in mind while watching.

Ben

[Rhutobello]

A couple of things to note, experts often don't agree on what to bid on any given hand (have you ever read the bidding problem hands and the so many different answers), and everyone makes mistakes at bridge (experts just a lot fewer), so keep all that in mind while watching.

Yes, just my point. Brigde is GREAT just because there are no simple solutions, but rather several that can give the right resoult.
If brigde was science, then there would be no fight, and no one to play, because facit was there ;D

I also agrre that few "players" on BBO have an exsact agreement over what they put into each bid.
That's why I thought this could be an good idea. In a way it is just like thread with brigdeproblems .(lol just read that you ref to the same ;D) Only this will happen live, and since no one can see two hands, they must try to give thoughts about what they belive makker will tell them and how to tell yours.;D

It will give us all, even the strongest player, a value because either you will see that your thoughts are right, or you might see other way to approch problems and solutions ;D

Anyway, if anyone will do this, they have my respect same what resoult they achive

[Free]

I think it's a good idea, and I'd like to help beginners to get them thinking the right way, not wishfull The biggest problem would probably be that we'll waste a lot of time by explaining everything, and if we get a real difficult problem it's going to take for ages. But beginners and intermediate will certainly learn more from it than by just kibitzing!

[Rhutobello]

Thanks Free, I am glad you see it that way ;D

however your statement:

The biggest problem would probably be that we'll waste a lot of time by explaining everything, and if we get a real difficult problem it's going to take for ages.

I see it quite oposite. I agree we will slow down number of games we can watch or play, but I belive we will gain much more in quality time and a couple of " AhA experience"

Thanks ;D

[ReginaldF]

Another excellent idea, though in the meantime I like to kib almost anyone to try and see if I can understand there reasoning

ReginaldF World class loon

[paulg]

There are some observations on this topic that I'd bring from running a couple of similar sessions in the B/I lounge, albeit with one "expert" and three B/I members.

• The play is a lot slower as there is so much chat - we find that 5 boards an hour is the most we can get through as many topics/threads get expanded, i.e., I would do this, but I also considered these bids. Most observers seem very happy with the play/chat mix.
  
  
• There is a limit to the amount of information people can really take on board so it's better to focus on one player's problems per hand.
  
  This suggests that having an expert, preferably two, commentating on any game is probably better value for the club members combined with the ability to control the table (i.e., teaching mode) so that bids/plays can be changed.
  
  
• The experts must be aware of their audience - keep things simple, no complex (or advanced) conventions, easily understood actions.
  
  
• If it is run with four experts, a moderator/commentator would still be a major advantage. Someone who can ask one of the experts, per hand, to commentate on his thoughts and actions.
  
  
• Explaining bidding is time consuming, takes more effort than expected especially as the typing becomes quite frantic. The play is far more difficult, but perhaps dummy should be commentating on this.

But it is an excellent idea and I know the B/I members would like this.

regards

paulg

[mishovnbg]

Hi friends!
Things are much more complicate, than you can suppose . One thing is to know something, another is to can make it at table and third is to can explain WHY you do something. World class player may give you very bad explanations and advices, just because he is not good teacher. By the way most of vugraph commentators, despite they are best players, comment like prophet or fortune-teller. Fred is example of great commentator, but now he is VERY RARE in his own BBO and almost never comment, how in past days ???.
My point of view is you need to comment professional teacher, no need to be bridge teacher. I think Ben can do excelent this job, because he not only play best bridge, but know WHY play so and can explain it right, because of great practice .
Misho

[inquiry]

Quote

My point of view is you need to comment professional teacher, no need to be bridge teacher. I think Ben can do excelent this job, because he not only play best bridge, but know WHY play so and can explain it right, because of great practice .

Thank you for the kind words, Misho. Although I am not all that sure I would make a good commentator, I agree that Fred does an excellent job when he comments.

Since you called me out on this issue and suggested that not everyone makes a good commentator, let me suggest what I think makes a good commentor.

1) Familiarity with the bidding systems used.

I have read extensively on numerous bidding systems, but have no real experience playing many of them. So while I could comment of blue club, romex, precision, KS, and 2/1, I would not feel that comfortable discussing ETM victory, polish club, moscito, etc. (I have read a lot on polish club, etm victory, moscito, however).

2) Familarity with the players.

This is helpful, if the commentator can draw upon his experience playing with or against a pair in the analysis of the hands. It also provides the opportuntity for insight into the players habits etc.

3) A good sense of humor

When combined with #2, a good commentator should be able to keep us entertained in the intolerable delays that happen with vugraph events (director calls, breaks, etc).

4) Superior bridge skills

Of course it helps if the commentator knows more about bridge than the audience. It also helps if the commentator understands the level of the audience so he either doesn't talk down to them, or doesn't talk over their heads. I think in the BBO, many in the audience are actually fairly reasonable players, as most of the beginners/novices find it too slow. But still, a commentator probably should be aware that beginners are present. It is also helpful if the commentator could explain why a bid that "novices" or "beginners" or "intermediate" players might make on a particular hand would be wrong.

5) Offer options....and explain why...

Experts disagree on so many bids. A good commentator should look at the problem hand and give a couple likely bids or rebids and start explaining why more than one bid is likely. This is particularily useful if the bidding is slow as it fills time and gives the audience something to ponder. ("25% of the experts with north's hand would bid 2S, but most of the remainder would bid 3S... the 2S bidders would do so because.... ")

6) Finally, a good commentator would also learn when not to comment

This isn't like TV where DEAD AIR is bad. I have witnessed so many vugraphs where the commentors just chatted away like they were at a bar or something, saying nothing of importance. Often talking about things totally unrelated to bridge, or saying something unhelpful like, what kind of bid was that, without explaining why they don't like the bid or what they would suggest instead.

As for me being a good commentor.. I l#2, #3, and #4 would be problems for me, and I have never known when to stop typing, so we can add #6 too. But I would at least explain the options for players as I see it, so I would beat #5 into the ground.

Ben

[Laird]

Hello Edvin
Thanks for posting this question and your kind remarks earlier....

I think that one of the key issues which may be glossed over is that perhaps we should introduce the idea of playing BBB at the beginners,learners and intermediate club.
In that way there would be little confusion regarding the system being played and under review. Experts would then be able to comment about their reasoning within the confines of Bridge Base Basic system. To my mind this would then help to highlight the pure thinking process taking place without fear of other system meanings coming to the fore and confusing the issue.
Keep it simple with a few set hands perhaps to highlight some of the advamtages of using the conventions available within the BBB system.
To my mind BBB is a good alround system and any expert worth his salt must surely be able to work well within its confines....perhaps not to an optimum level but surely to a level that would be of benefit to the intended viewers.

Kind regards
John
ps give us milk first, we are not ready for mince and tatties yet!

[Rhutobello]

;D ;D Agree with you Misho, both on difficulty, Fred and Ben ;D ;D

After attending some lessons in B/I lounge, I must say that those expert and world class players that have given lesson, have been great. Luis made that pice of art to employ evry member of the group, and I think he got an record in postings, so if they where standard, no problem ;D ;D But yes, not all are fit for such an event.

What to remember here is that non is playing for the world cup and the audience are people that more "look up" to the players, rather then look for fault made by them ;D

Have a nice day ;D

[Rhutobello]

think that one of the key issues which may be glossed over is that perhaps we should introduce the idea of playing BBB at the beginners,learners and intermediate club

Thx John, yes indeed you are right ;D

I think intro exsotic bidding, will not give us that much : So your thoughts about this are absolute right ;D

Have a nice day ;D

[hallway]

Beginner Intermediate Lounge Mentoring

I must assume , John, that you did not receive the Lounge News Update otherwise you would be aware that there are currently three sessions per week specifically dealing with BB Basic System .

The lounge now has in excess of 630 members and grows daily !!

It is my intention that all members will have the choice of attending sessions dealing with the Members system of choice.

The benefits to the members are not solely to improve their enjoyment on BBO (though that is the primary purpose of the Lounge ) but I also want the members to become shining lights at their home clubs also. To do that sessions honing their skills in the system used when playing with their hometown partners are also necessary.

Members must and will chose which sessions they want to attend. In time there may well be more than one session running concurrently 8)

The members are exceptionally fortunate that BBO provides them with such excellent opportunities - it is up the members to exercise their freedom of choice and be selective in what sessions they attend.

I have received requests from members wanting to be able to attend sessions on three other systems not currently being catered for - I have to find suitably skilled experts willing to GIVE of their time to provide those. One can but hope that 'all good things will come to those that wait "