[zasanya]

In a different thread I came across many comments regarding the Gerber convention.All of them insinuated that Gerber is not a good convention.
Could somebody explain why are so many players against Gerber?
Apart from Gerber and SA Texas is 1 NT- 4♣ sequence used in any other sequence?
BTW my idea of Gerber is 1NT-4♣ and 2NT-4♣ sequences.

[dogsbreath]

WARNING .. this thread could turn nasty

..the only more certain way to attract abuse is to express a liking for FLANNERY

Rgds Dog

[EricK]

Most criticism of Gerber comes in sequences other than in response to 1/2NT (eg 1♠ 3♠ 4♣).

I think the main reason for the criticism is that there is normally a better use for 4♣ (eg as a control bid). A further point, is that many pairs seem to play 4♣ is always Gerber eg 1♣ (3♠) 4♣!

I personally think that you don't really need Gerber after 1NT, and especially not after 2NT. In the latter case, what you are effectively saying to partner is "I know you have 21 or so points but all I am really interested in is how many Aces you have." How often do you really get a hand like that? i.e. one where you can place both the suit and level of the contract with just that information.

SA Texas is possibly better than Gerber opposite 1NT (especially if you play a weak NT) as it allows responder to bid to the 4 level immediately but still leave the option to play 4M himself (by bidding 4M directly) or let opener play it (by bidding 4♣/♦)

Eric

[whereagles]

Modulo the fact that you hardly ever get a hand where the G-word convention is appropriate, Gerber would be fine if you were to restrict it to

1NT 4♣ and
2NT 4♣

Now, some insist in playing it after

1NT 2♣
2♦ 4♣

while others even extend it to

1NT 2♣
2M 4♣

If you do these extensions, by the time you get to

1NT 2♦/♥ (transfer)
2x 4♣

you are no longer sure what 4♣ is. And worse, you're also not sure pard is on the same wavelenght!

You can now imagine what might happen if you extend Gerber to non-NT auctions...

It is for these reasons, plus the fact that you're wasting an otherwise useful bid, that I say that the world would be a safer place without Sadda... err.. Gerber

[kgr]

Jlall, on Jan 21 2006, 07:03 AM, said:

gerber is a fine convention, it is just misused and overused. I have probably bid gerber once in the past 5 years so that is how frequent it is. When it does come up it is useful.

However you often here beginner/intermediates claiming some random 4C bid was gerber, or if they actually do use it in a correct auction they have the wrong hand etc. That is the real gripe, for me anyways.

Right!
We had this bidding last week:
1NT-(3H)-4C
My partner was not sure that 4C was gerber or not, but was happy to bid it because he also had clubs.
For me it was of course not Gerber.

[Free]

whereagles, on Jan 21 2006, 06:46 AM, said:

Modulo the fact that you hardly ever get a hand where the G-word convention is appropriate, Gerber would be fine if you were to restrict it to

1NT 4♣ and
2NT 4♣

Now, some insist in playing it after

1NT 2♣
2♦ 4♣

Up till here it's ok, but once partner shows a Major, or you transfer, you use other methods.

Btw, I've always played Gerber, but never had to use it. Perhaps because we also include 5-card Majors in the NT hands, so we have to find a 5-3 fit first.

I know lots of people (usually not the good players) who ALWAYS play 4♣ as some extended Ace-asking tool where they show Kings as well. I don't like such treatment, but I won't try to convince them to change They even use it after a 3-level preempt!

[hrothgar]

Don't be so hard on Gerber
Lots of experts also denigrate Blackwood

[hotShot]

Well Gerber is fine after 1NT- 4♣, but only if you can't bid 6NT directly.

I think after 2[NT] 4♣ there is better use for it (e.g. as transfer to ♦ in a 4way transfer to keep the 3NT bid, or RKCB based on ♣ so you can stop in 5♣ if slam is not on).

The problem is that people think they have to bid Gerber or Blackwood to reach a slam.
But Gerber and Blackwood are not conventions to bid a slam, they are intended to avoid a slam, if it can't be made because of missing keycards. If you are strong enough don't use them, otherwise you just give your opps hope that there might be a killing lead.....

[mcphee]

As probally stated in some respones here, many intermediate/advanced players bounce to Gerber at the smallest sound of encouragement. Often this is a mistake. Some players use Gerber after a Stayman inquiry and a major suit response in reply, for them 4C is Gerber now. More expirienced playeres use 4C as a splinter.

I can't recall the last time Gerber came up for me, and I play a lot of hands a year.

[Echognome]

As an exercise, try playing for a month without ANY ace asking bids. If you want, make the 4NT bid be a trump cuebid or showing 2 keycards or just a general slam try. Then cuebid your way to any slams. You might be surprised at how accurate you can bid without ever asking for aces. You also now have to rely on inferences from your p's bidding what his hand is. I believe it's a good exercise in bidding. A lot like Justin's "no signals on defense for a month" is a good exercise in defense.

[goodwintr]

Sounds a lot like Turbo, Echognome.

TLG

[Echognome]

I meant it more as Culbertson's 4NT 5NT. But nevertheless, you can just play it as a general slam try and still take many inferences. Turbo is, of course, well proven as an effective slam bidding tool.

[kenberg]

I use Gerber.
There needs to be clarity.
With a little effort, you an arrange it so that after 1NT there is never ambiguity.
Over 2NT openings, there is a potential problem:
If 3C is Stayman (normal or puppet) and if 4C is Gerber, then what do you do if you have clubs and wish to make a slam try in clubs. I am not saying the problem is unsolvable but it is a problem. Many people play that 2N-3S shows bith minors (slam try), and that an auction such as 2N-3C-3S-4C shows clubs, but would only be made when responder also has hearts. I think Kantar once suggested 2N-5C as Gerber (he addressed the problem somehow but I am vague about his solution).

This problem doesn't arise frequently since 2N openings are not that common to start with and when they do occur it's not that often responder wishes to make a slam try in clubs. So one can ignore this issue without great danger of being bitten.

[pigpenz]

yes, the problem is most people dont have definite agreements as to what is gerber and what is not, so you get these auctions that dont make any sense.

Playing with a Diamond Life Master(5000+) i had this auction where I used Gerber.

1NT 4♣
4♥ 4NT
6NT

asking why he bid 6NT when i signed off he said, isnt 4NT Quantitative

[awm]

There's also a convention called super gerber that involves bidding 5♣ as gerber. Regardless of the merits of this convention (I don't play it myself), it's got to have one of the best names of any popular convention!

[han]

I agree with Justin that there is nothing wrong with Gerber as long as you use it with care.

[whereagles]

Let me rephrase that. Everything is wrong with Gerber, even if you use it with care.

[kenberg]

Gerber auctions are probably particularly useful for showing the importance of discussion of a convention rather than just agreeing to play convention X and trusting that this means the same thing to both players. However, if this has been done, Gerber has its uses. Here are two.

Case 1: Partner opens 1NT and you have a hand that looks to make six on playing strength but could be off two aces. Surely these exist. This is the obvious use of Gerber.

Case 2: Partner opens 1NT, you have a slam invitational hand with a good four card heart suit and a little shape. Probably playing in hearts is right if partner has four. So
1NT 2C
2S ?

Yes indeed, I like to play that 4C is Gerber, in fact Key Card Gerber. I would have bid 4C had partner responded hearts. When he responds spades, I bid 4NT, invitational. I see little wrong with this, providing it has been discussed.


Whereagles noted that if you do this partner will have no idea of what to make of
1NT-2D
2H -4C

He certainly won't, if you haven't discussed it. A problem with almost all conventiontions is that there can be ambiguity if you haven't discussed it. I prefer using it as a singleton club, a substantail heart suit, and slam seeking. Not Gerber.

With players that I have discussed Gerber sequences with, I have never found an ambiguous situation. None of these Gerber auctions are at all frequent, but they come up and they work well enough when they arise. If someone thinks that 1NT-4C can be put to better use, perhaps so. It seems likely that 2NT-4C as club showing and slam seeking is in fact preferable to Gerber and I have played it that way although I cannot remeber the last time I cared.

As to whether one should or should not use Gerber with a pick-up, I agree readily not to use it if partner doesn't like it, while if he wants to use it I try to get him to agree that it will apply when and only when there is a jump to 4C directly over a natural bid of 1 or 2 NT. This is not optimal but it's adequate and removes ambiguity.

Ken

[jdeegan]

pigpenz, on Jan 21 2006, 11:37 AM, said:

Playing with a Diamond Life Master(5000+) i had this auction where I used Gerber.

1NT 4♣
4♥ 4NT
6NT

asking why he bid 6NT when i signed off he said, isnt 4NT Quantitative

I think one needs the Gerber convention in the same way one needs the 5NT grand slam force. It comes up rarely, but when it does, nothing else is likely to do and lots of points are at stake. You need it only when partner opens some number of NT and you have a long running suit as a source of tricks.

In the example given above, declarer should be off two aces. Responder might hold:

xx
xx
AKQJxxxx
x

I suspect your somewhat confused diamond life master also holds some form of longevity award.