[Al_U_Card]

Seems to me it was just a logical way of differentiating the hand types
balance with a bid<balance with a jump<balance with a double and then bid

[Winstonm]

It's not good to lump too many bids into the "double" umbrella in 4th seat. To use a jump to show an opening weak 2 bid seems less valuable because partner did not act so is less likely to hold a hand and there is no one left to preempt other than opener. By using a jump to show a certain goodish hand with a good suit, you can eliminate that hand from double and bid - any time you can eliminate a hand type you have narrowed the range of possible hands that any bid might show.

For example, how would you bid these two hands in passout?

AK9xx, xx, Axx, Kxx

AKJ10xx, xx, AQxx, x

If you double and bid spades with both, and partner holds: xx, Axx, xxxx, AJxx, how does he know when to move? He should get interested knowing partner holds hand 2 but not so much with hand 1. When you can eliminate the pressure of what suit should be trump then you only have to decide how high to bid.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Winston

[han]

Winston,

I think I agree with you, but you seem to be making a case against yourself:

To use a jump to show an opening weak 2 bid seems less valuable because partner did not act so is less likely to hold a hand and there is no one left to preempt other than opener.

No one left to preempt except opener... that's good right?

For example, how would you bid these two hands in passout?

AK9xx, xx, Axx, Kxx

AKJ10xx, xx, AQxx, x

If you double and bid spades with both, and partner holds: xx, Axx, xxxx, AJxx, how does he know when to move? He should get interested knowing partner holds hand 2 but not so much with hand 1.

I don't get your point. Are you playing that the jump to 2♠ is *stronger* than double followed by 2♠ over 2♣?? That seems impossible, what do you do with 5-2-3-3 hands that are quite a bit better than hand 1?

[awm]

Honestly it wouldn't occur to me that I should double first in passout seat with 14-15 hcp and the "wrong" shape for a takeout double, just to show strength.

How light do people balance? My expectation is that when the auction goes 1m-pass-pass to me and my hand isn't particularly good, partner usually has something like 11-14 balanced. This is the main "opening strength" hand that can't find a call over 1m. Of course it's possible partner has a long club suit with poor spots and didn't want to bid over 1♦, or that partner has freak length in opener's minor, but "weak notrump" openings are probably a lot more common than these.

If I don't think we are likely to have the majority of the strength if partner holds 11-14 flat, then I'm passing (unless maybe I hold a really good long suit, which I much prefer to bid at the two level!). I see no need to balance with 6-7 points and a flattish hand. Maybe other people do -- I remember my partner declaring 1♥ in a pairs event and my RHO (with a 4441 19-count) being furious that his partner didn't balance with 1♠ on AQxx of spade and out.

Anyways, taking this approach, while my balancing doubles may be a bit light with "perfect" shape (I would double 1♦ with a 4414 8-count in balancing seat), my "power" doubles are not much different than they would be in direct seat. I'm happy to balance at the one-level with hands worth something like 8-16 hcp (obviously shape comes into this too).

So most of these example hands like AKJTxx Axx Qxx x and the like are 1♠ bids for me. I can rebid 3♠ later (although I believe a 2♠ rebid should show values -- something like 11-14 since I didn't balance with a preempt). I'd much rather preempt when it seems likely opener has the values for another bid; this puts a lot of pressure on especially when opener has 18-19 balanced, since passing could sell to 2♠ making when they have the majority of the strength, and bidding could go for a number if responder has nothing.

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on Jan 20 2006, 01:18 PM, said:

Winston,

I think I agree with you, but you seem to be making a case against yourself:
To use
a jump to show an opening weak 2 bid seems less valuable because partner did not act so is less likely to hold a hand and there is no one left to preempt other than opener.

Why would we want to preempt opener?  It is a frequency issue.  It is playable to use a jump as weak but this is basically assuming one of two things: partner has a good hand that could not act over 1X, meaning he usually holds that suit, or that opener has a big hand and we have to annoy him.  Seems to me much more likely that opener has a normal opener and partner has a smattering of cards that couldn't act and it is better to show the picture bid to help solidify the trump position - good suits and decent to goodish hands. 
No one left to preempt except opener... that's good right?
Not to me.  A first seat preempt has the advantage of fooling 2 opponents and only 1 partner so the odds are 2/1 in favor of acting.  In passout, there is only 1 to fool and he has already stated part of his case with his opening bid.  Instead of trying to shut him out from further bidding, it is my opinion that I would rather engage in constructive bidding of my own as I have less equipment than opener in this regard.
For example, how would you bid these two hands in passout?

AK9xx, xx, Axx, Kxx

AKJ10xx, xx, AQxx, x

If you double and bid spades with both, and partner holds: xx, Axx, xxxx, AJxx, how does he know when to move? He should get interested knowing partner holds hand 2 but not so much with hand 1.

I don't get your point. Are you playing that the jump to 2♠ is *stronger* than double followed by 2♠ over 2♣?? That seems impossible, what do you do with 5-2-3-3 hands that are quite a bit better than hand 1?

Not stronger but a different hand - the jump emphazises the suit whereas double and bid shows the hand without the good suit.  I play this way: balancing without doubling shows around 9-12 and doubling and bidding shows around 13-15ish.  With the two example hands, I'd reopen with 2S with the 6-card suit and then double followed by 2S with the more balanced hand - more or less the same strength but totally different hand types.  From about 16 ish on up, I'd double and either jump or cue bid. 
Winston

Maybe this makes better sense.

[Winstonm]

awm, on Jan 20 2006, 01:43 PM, said:

Honestly it wouldn't occur to me that I should double first in passout seat with 14-15 hcp and the "wrong" shape for a takeout double, just to show strength.

How light do people balance? My expectation is that when the auction goes 1m-pass-pass to me and my hand isn't particularly good, partner usually has something like 11-14 balanced. This is the main "opening strength" hand that can't find a call over 1m. Of course it's possible partner has a long club suit with poor spots and didn't want to bid over 1♦, or that partner has freak length in opener's minor, but "weak notrump" openings are probably a lot more common than these.

If I don't think we are likely to have the majority of the strength if partner holds 11-14 flat, then I'm passing (unless maybe I hold a really good long suit, which I much prefer to bid at the two level!). I see no need to balance with 6-7 points and a flattish hand. Maybe other people do -- I remember my partner declaring 1♥ in a pairs event and my RHO (with a 4441 19-count) being furious that his partner didn't balance with 1♠ on AQxx of spade and out.

Anyways, taking this approach, while my balancing doubles may be a bit light with "perfect" shape (I would double 1♦ with a 4414 8-count in balancing seat), my "power" doubles are not much different than they would be in direct seat. I'm happy to balance at the one-level with hands worth something like 8-16 hcp (obviously shape comes into this too).

So most of these example hands like AKJTxx Axx Qxx x and the like are 1♠ bids for me. I can rebid 3♠ later (although I believe a 2♠ rebid should show values -- something like 11-14 since I didn't balance with a preempt). I'd much rather preempt when it seems likely opener has the values for another bid; this puts a lot of pressure on especially when opener has 18-19 balanced, since passing could sell to 2♠ making when they have the majority of the strength, and bidding could go for a number if responder has nothing.

I agree with a lot of what you say. The balance should be much like the reason for overcalling - to compete for the partscore or bid game of your own. With weak hands you can pass so there is little reason to get involved with weakish hands. I would have to hold a pretty solid 9-count and 4441 pattern to double but when singlesuited it pays to be able to limit my strength so partner can have a better idea of how to act. A non-jump, non-double rebid to me is in the range of 10-12. If I have better than this - a full opener and not just a balancer - then it seems right to me to let partner in on this fact so I double and bid to show solid opening values. It is hard enough to bid well when the opponents have struck the first blow, so anytime we can add some type of limit to the bids we have helped clarify our hands. A jump rebid as a picture bid not only sells that hand but more importantly takes it out of the double and bid mix - it is a hand partner cannot hold for his bidding.

Winston