[42]

Hi!
In Polish Club the 2-level openings are defined as

• 2♣ = 6+♣s or 5+ ♣s with 4crd M, 12-17 pts. The only "normal" opening with chances for game, therefore it keeps its meaning in all positions.

• 2♦ = w2 in ♥ or ♠
  
• 2♥ = ♥s + any, at least 55, 6-10 pts,
  
• 2♠ = ♠s + minor, at least 55, 6-10 pts,
  
• 2NT = minors, at least 55, 6-10 pts.

What does each opening (except 2♣) show in 4th hand since a preempt is useless?

Bonus question:
would you open this hand in 4th position? It's an important team match against strong opps and you want to collect every little IMP, no gifts for the bad ones!

Scoring: IMP

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Thx
Caren

[joker_gib]

Hi Caren!

2♣ is 12-14, not 12-17, isn't it ?

Alain

[Gerben42]

Hi Caren,

In 4th seat, the weak bids show just around a minimum opening hand, maybe 9 - 13 HCP. Your shown hand is borderline but 5 - 5 majors so nice

I think I'll open it.

BTW 2♣ is about 10+ to 14 HCP normally, sorry but I saw the variation you play and don't think it's very playable.

[42]

Hi Alain!
Sorry, I forgot to explain that we changed the requirements for the 2♣ opening in our version because we found that the standard precision 2♣ opening is a wound of the system. We play now that it shows 6 ♣s with at least 2 top honors when 12-14 (rebid 3♣), or 6 ♣s 15-17 (rebid 2NT), or 5 ♣s + 4 M, 15-17. Garbage is in 1♣. It works fine so far.

[hotShot]

Assuming that opps and partner would have found an opening with 12+hcp, they are all limited to 11 hcp at most. Your side has a maximum of 11 + *what you hold*.
How strong would you want to be playing 3m making? It must be "making", because you can get a positive 0 just by passing now. So i guess 2NT and any combination with a minor is no longer interesting, unless you hold opening strength.
If you want to change just the strength, i would say (10)11-12(13) meaning that game is out of reach but the partscore is save. It might be even better to change the system, so that 2M is just a good weak2, keeping the contract at the 2 level.

To the hand shown:
No i won't open that in 4th seat. We have 19HCP at most, and any negative score will be bad for us. Since opps did not bid, we can't beat them (well done opps) and partners limited hcp's will be useless, if they are in the minors and we can only hope we have a fit.

[Echognome]

I agree with Gerben that the 2♣ bid sounds unplayable. The point being that if you have a misfitting 8 count, you will want to pass over a hand with 12-14 and invite over the better hands. 12-17 is just too wide a range in my opinion.

In 4th, your 2 level openings should be intermediate. I personally like 10-14 as range, but others opinions may vary.

I think the given hand is close. It depends a lot on how aggressive your partner is in opening. With an aggressive partner I may very well choose to pass. With a conservative partner I am more likely to open.

[kenberg]

It's a little unusual to be looking at 8 hcps after three passes. I'm not sure from your question whether you are considering dropping the 2 suited meaning for fourth hand or whether you want to keep the two suited structure but you are asking about the playing strength needed. I have no opinion about two suit versus single suit, but I wouldn't open this if I could bid 2H showing hearts and another, and I wouldn't open it 2S if that showed spades only. In the likely event that there will be competition, partner will need to choose among doubling, competing, and passing. If I open this stuff I think there is a fine chance partner will choose wrong, possibly disastrously wrong. This is on top of the possibility that we can't make anything to start with.

Ken

[42]

kenberg, on Jan 17 2006, 09:01 PM, said:

I'm not sure from your question whether you are considering dropping the 2 suited meaning for fourth hand or whether you want to keep the two suited structure but you are asking about the playing strength needed.

I am collecting opinions what is best to do in 4th hand. I am not sticking on 2-suiters, I am free to change the whole meaning in this position, although it would blow up the system. This problem exists for all openings which are preemptive in 1. and 2. seat. I cannot remember that this theme is mentioned in books, or is it??
Recently I was witness when 2 players had a big quarrel about the 1NT opening in 4th position (they play 10-12 being nonvulnerable). Imo it makes no sense since this opening shall preempt opps, and that was what the one player said, the other mumbled that they have 10-12 written on their convention card And this is an experienced long time partnership...
Caren

[Gerben42]

I know why this did not come up before, 10 - 12 balanced is rare in 4th seat (if you get there at all), the most frequent 3-point range in 4th is 14 - 16!

I think I'd stick to the 2-suiters for the sake of simplicity, but a bit stronger.