[Al_U_Card]

On the same theme, if pard opened light, he has S tolerance because without it he would open 2H. 1S wins both ways. If he has that magic hand where game makes he will discount his JTx of S when you use Drury but not when you start with 1S.

[han]

btw, I disagree with Mauro and Al U card that partner has to have 3 spades any time she opens a subminimal 1H. I do like to open 1H on xx KQJx Kx Jxxxx in third seat, and generally I would try to give partner a chance to get out at a low level. I realize that the 1S response may work out badly, but I think that the constructive aspect is worth it.

[Al_U_Card]

Hannie, on Jan 17 2006, 03:29 PM, said:

btw, I disagree with Mauro and Al U card that partner has to have 3 spades any time she opens a subminimal 1H. I do like to open 1H on xx KQJx Kx Jxxxx in third seat, and generally I would try to give partner a chance to get out at a low level. I realize that the 1S response may work out badly, but I think that the constructive aspect is worth it.

Yes, Han, that IS certainly a common occurance compared to the counterpart....must come up once in a blue moon.....btw, who knows what a blue moon is?

[foo]

mcphee, on Jan 15 2006, 12:01 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠   ♥   ♦   ♣

AQ643.A105.73.853

After you passed this hand in first seat partner opens 1H. What is your plan when the next hand passes? Do you show S and possibly hear partner raise with 3 or 4 trumps, or make a 3 card drury raise of H, or choose some other action?

Lets assume that partner opened 1H in first seat. Would you show S or elect to make a 3 card imit raise in H bidding 1NT and then 3H over partners expected low level minor rebid?

Do you treat a S bid and then 3H as 5S and 3 card limit for H when partner bids a minor next? What do you do if your partner were to raise to 2S should he happen to open in first seat?

I know how I feel about this particular hand type. I'd like to hear from the rest of the world.

"Keep it Simple Stupid". Drury has the dual purposes of a) helping our Game and Slam bidding (people often forget this is the most important reason for Drury) and b ) keeping us below the 2 level until Opener has guaranteed their strength.

AQ643.AT5.73.853 has no such problem. I bid 1S.
What can go wrong?
a) PD passes with 3+♠ and a minimum (~12-14) or subminimum (~11-). While there are some hands where we may miss a Game, they are unlikely ones.

b ) PD raises to 2S (I play this as promising 4+♠ or 3+♠ and a side stiff/void). We invite via 1H-1S;2S-3H;-?? We have "told our story" and PD has all the information needed to Do The Right Thing.

c) PD rebids 1N= flat minimum w/o 4 ♠'s and likely w/o 3 ♠'s either. Our hand just went down in value. 2H is perhaps an underbid but 3H is definitely an overbid here.

d) PD rebids a m ( 1H-1S;2m-?? ). Again, our hand just went down in value. 2H is probably enough.

e) PD rebids 2H (!!). Our hand improves even further than it did after the 1H opening. The known 9+ card fit plus the presumption of either A) a double fit in ♠+♥ or ♠ shortness (and therefore likely ♣ length) means this hand is definitely worth an invite via 3H.

1H-1S;2D-3H;?? tells PD everything they need to know: I have 4+♠ worth mentioning in a hand with H support and Invitational values.

In stark contrast, if I bid Drury or even 3 card Drury I'm going to have a hard time telling PD "where I live" so they can make an informed decision regarding how well our hands fit together.

For example, Kxx.KQxxx.Axxx.x is a nice minimum opening bid that after 1H-Dr;?? probably signs off in 2H. Responder will have to "take a position" to take a second bid here. Assuming reasonable partnership discipline you are very likely to have just missed the good 4H contract. After 1H-1S;2D-3H it's easy for PD to visualize the play and put us in game (and just as importantly, the =correct= game) with the right hands.

1S. The KISS bid.

[Gerben42]

I bid 1♠.

BTW a blue moon is a second full moon in a calendar month. Next one: June 30th, 2007

[Chamaco]

Hannie, on Jan 17 2006, 08:29 PM, said:

btw, I disagree with Mauro and Al U card that partner has to have 3 spades any time she opens a subminimal 1H. I do like to open 1H on xx KQJx Kx Jxxxx in third seat, and generally I would try to give partner a chance to get out at a low level. I realize that the 1S response may work out badly, but I think that the constructive aspect is worth it.

I did not say that a light 1H opener should guarantee 3 cads in spades, did I ?

All I am saying is that (at least in my agrements, borrowed from Mike Lawrence's book on passed hand bidding), when 3rd seat opener rebids ANYTHING at second round, (s)he promises a full opener: that means that a NON-OPENER should be ready to pass any response by p, without exceptions (well, not really : only exception, artificial raises of course ), so he should have at least tolerance for spades.

I agree with you that a 1H light opener might often be a good bet, even with a doubleton spades, but if/when we do it, we must be ready to pass the 1S response among others, to discriminate full openers (which would rebid) from hands worth just an overcall.

====================

Incdentally, I agree with the posters who suggested that a 1S bid will lead to a better hand description and evaluation by pard, if opener has indeed a full opening.

[inquiry]

"support with support". To not bid drury here is a mistake.

[Winstonm]

IMO, to Not bid Drury here is a mistake. Partner has opened 1H in third seat - what is the bid most likely to get his attention that game is still possible? Heart support, obviously, and limit raise strength. So we announce that immediately with a bid partner cannot pass - 2C.

As much respect as I have for Marty Bergen and his ideas, the concept of dividing 3 and 4 card support in Drury is not one of his better uses - it is too important to have a "middle" bid open to express a full opening hand and 2D is the only call that fills the bill; without this, you are stuck with 2H on hands that would not accept a limit raise, and that is plain wrong, as location of cards and length is what is important in thin game bidding, not total high cards.

So, IMO, 2C should be simple Drury. This allows a rebid of 2D to say I have a hand I would have opened in 1st seat - nothing more. 2H says I am subminimum.
Kxx, KQxxx, x, Kxxx. If this hand would rebid 2H in Drury then it should also pass a 1S bid. If this is considered an opening bid in 1st seat then it surely is worth a 2D bid after Drury. Now when partner continues with 2S, which should show a good 5 card suit - the feature of the hand - opener can almost count 10 tricks and can bid 4H knowing there is heart support.

The value of Drury is that you can show limit raise strength and have gained an entire level of bidding that isn't available over a normal limit raise in which to explore game.

Winston

[Chamaco]

Winstonm, on Jan 18 2006, 04:21 PM, said:

IMO, to Not bid Drury here is a mistake.  Partner has opened 1H in third seat - what is the bid most likely to get his attention that game is still possible?  Heart support, obviously, and limit raise strength.  So we announce that immediately with a bid partner cannot pass - 2C.

IMO it is a matter of pship agreements.

1) Does a rebid by opener promise a full opening ?
2) Does 3rd seat opener with sub-opening values guarantee tolerance to pass any reply by pard ?

If the answer to both 1 and 2 is yes, then it make sense t treat this hand just as if pard had opened 1st/2nd seat.

What would you respond with this hand to a 1st/2nd seat opening ?
If you'd bid 1S planning to jump raise, then do the same here, because if pard rebids he guarantees a full opening and thus the situation is just like a 1st/2nd seat pening, where the 1S bid serves the purpose to describe better the hand if pard has to decide whether it fits or not in the side values.

BUT, if the partnership did not agree on either 1) or 2), I can understand the pluses of using Drury, ignoring spades.

[Al_U_Card]

Gerben42, on Jan 18 2006, 05:52 AM, said:

I bid 1♠.

BTW a blue moon is a second full moon in a calendar month. Next one: June 30th, 2007

And it is blue because?

[pclayton]

foo, on Jan 17 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

"Keep it Simple Stupid".

I think Foo needs to go to finishing school.

[awm]

Out of question, what would 2♠ mean? Weak doesn't seem to logical if you play weak two bids, and strong would be bizarre by a passed hand.

For me 2♠ is fit-showing. This gives partner the opportunity to pass if he really wants to, and a full description of my hand if he's bidding on...

Anyways if fit-showing jump is not available I'll go with 1♠. This gives partner the opportunity to pass or bid 1NT with something minimum, and I can always make a limit raise later if partner rebids something.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Jan 18 2006, 03:35 PM, said:

"support with support". To not bid drury here is a mistake.

Who says pard has 5 hearts? He's in 3rd seat, after all...

Oh.. I forgot a 4-3 fit is enough for you

[flytoox]

awm, on Jan 18 2006, 07:18 PM, said:

Out of question, what would 2♠ mean? Weak doesn't seem to logical if you play weak two bids, and strong would be bizarre by a passed hand.

For me 2♠ is fit-showing. This gives partner the opportunity to pass if he really wants to, and a full description of my hand if he's bidding on...

Anyways if fit-showing jump is not available I'll go with 1♠. This gives partner the opportunity to pass or bid 1NT with something minimum, and I can always make a limit raise later if partner rebids something.

2S is fit showing, but tend to show 4 trump spt.