[adhoc3]

Scoring: IMP

Precision
1S----2C
2H----3H
4H----4S*(RKB)
4NT*--5C**(*03, **?Q)
6C*---7H//(Q+C control)

Contract failed as CJ was not dropped.

---

[han]

The auction started out well with 1S-2C-2H-3H-4H. It is unbelievable that east went to a grand slam after this. So even though most bids were quite reasonable, I voted for "poor" and give east all the blame.

[pbleighton]

"The auction started out well with 1S-2C-2H-3H-4H. It is unbelievable that east went to a grand slam after this. So even though most bids were quite reasonable, I voted for "poor" and give east all the blame."

I agree (though North is the culprit, if I read the diagram correctly). If they were playing natural, I wouldn't be so harsh, but North knows South has a max of 15 hcp, and showed no slam interest opposite what I presume to be a slam-interested slow arrival bid of 3H.

Peter

[Free]

1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♥ is a good start, but the 4♥ bid is quite poor imo. South has controls, he should bid them. He's already limited anyway... Now North wants to try for slam and he might have 3 ♦ losers of top going down in 5♥! Going to grand when you know partner is short in your best suit is also a bit wacko.

[han]

Yes I meant North, thanks Peter.

I agree with Free that 4H might not be the best bid, but given that south did bid 4H north could not possibly have interest in a grand.

[Winstonm]

More a thinking problem than anything else - and a response problem. Given that 2C is based on a genuine suit, then there is no reason to show a singleton control in a suit partner has bid. I would rather use the 6C bid as the Q plus a "filler" card in clubs, something like Qx or Kx.

The hand fell apart on the club suit - the 6 club bid as you play it should have deterred grand slam rather than prompted it. Much better if partner holds xx in clubs than x unless the club suit is totally solid.

But these are only my views and suggestions, so take them for what they are worth - you get what you pay for.

Winston

[luke warm]

Free, on Jan 20 2006, 02:48 AM, said:

1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♥ is a good start, but the 4♥ bid is quite poor imo. South has controls, he should bid them. He's already limited anyway... Now North wants to try for slam and he might have 3 ♦ losers of top going down in 5♥! Going to grand when you know partner is short in your best suit is also a bit wacko.

maybe so fredrick, but i think you'd think long and hard about the grand playing weiss (or canape relay)... don't know how it'd go in moscito

[Kalvan14]

even if the J♣ comes down, you still need two ruffs in spades with N hand.
The best chance is to play a cross-ruff, and certainly not play on clubs.
The grand becomes reasonable with K♦ instead of the Q.

[akhare]

luke warm, on Jan 20 2006, 07:00 PM, said:

maybe so fredrick, but i think you'd think long and hard about the grand playing weiss (or canape relay)... don't know how it'd go in moscito

Here's how it will go our system:

P ;14+; any shape
1♣ ;GF
1♥ ;reverse relay, min hand
1♠ ;relay
1N ;SS ♥ or both majors
2♣ ;relay
2♥ ;5+ ♥; 4♠
2♠ ;relay
3♦ ;4-5-3-1 exactly
3♥ ;control ask
3N ;5 controls
6♥ ;can't see 13 tricks

[Free]

Moscito:

1♥ - 1♠ (4+♠ - relay)
2♥ - 2♠ (5+♠, 4+♥ - relay)
3♥ - 3♠ (5-4-3-1 - relay)
4♥ - 4♠ (9 SlamPoints - relay)
5♥ - 6♥ (1 tophonour ♠, 1/2 tophonours ♥ and ♦ - to play)

I always see a loser ♠ or ♦ unless we get lucky with ♣. But I'm not a wishful thinker...

[MarceldB]

Free, on Jan 21 2006, 11:22 AM, said:

Moscito:


4♥ - 4♠ (9 SlamPoints - relay)
5♥ - 6♥ (1 tophonour ♠, 1/2 tophonours ♥ and ♦ - to play)

I'm missing your argument in your earlier post
"Now North wants to try for slam and he might have 3♦ losers of top going down in 5♥!"

In your given sequence with f.e.

AKQxx
KQxx
xxx
x
a 4NT reply non or AKQ♠ I suppose, now pass or 5♥?

reason why I can use in REGRESsion more as a distribution relay only

Pass= 13+
...1♣= 6-11 part balanced OR 12+ any
1♥= 13-16 s/v♥ OR s/v♣ ,L=M or any 5/5
...1♠=relay
1NT= s/v♣ variant
...2♣= g.f. relay
2♦= L=♠, no 5/5
...2♠= distri relay ànd at the same time stopper sequence (2♥=normal relay and stopperasking possiblity later too but not in case RR has a 4c♥)
3NT= 5=4=3=1, ♥+♦ stop and a minimum 13-14p.
...4♥= Slam asking Bid ♥
5♠=3 Aces of 5 + Trump Queen, no Queen♣
...6♥

If north should have AKQTx of ♣, he will proceed after 5♠ with:
...5NT= Jack♥? (the only way to ask for J♣ afterwards)
6♣= no
...6♦= Jack♣?
if not 6♥ and pass

[Flame]

The bid has no logic, the strong hand showed a weak hand and the weak hand showed a strong hand, these two upside down mistakes got you by accident to something that has a chance.

[Free]

MarceldB, on Jan 21 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

Free, on Jan 21 2006, 11:22 AM, said:

Moscito:


4♥ - 4♠ (9 SlamPoints - relay)
5♥ - 6♥ (1 tophonour ♠, 1/2 tophonours ♥ and ♦ - to play)

I'm missing your argument in your earlier post
"Now North wants to try for slam and he might have 3♦ losers of top going down in 5♥!"

In your given sequence with f.e.

AKQxx
KQxx
xxx
x
a 4NT reply non or AKQ♠ I suppose, now pass or 5♥?
~snip~

The drawback from relaymethods is clear (and I thought you knew this): you only find shape (not controls) before reaching a critical decision. With the natural methods you should exploit the fact that you CAN do this. With relays you just "hope" partner has something in ♦ (Jxx is usually enough, but hopefully the K or A), while with natural systems you'll know he has a control there or not.

I think low-level RKC might produce better here, but again we're too high to be safe. 4♥ instead of 3♠ would be RKC ♥, but you're still getting too high. And you still wouldn't know if you have an Ace missing which one it is.
This is one of the problems we have with the Moscito limited openings: 2-suiters with both Majors, or both minors, are all bid 1 step higher than normal, and it's an expensive one!

[MarceldB]

Free, on Jan 21 2006, 02:20 PM, said:

The drawback from relaymethods is clear (and I thought you knew this): you only find shape (not controls) before reaching a critical decision. 

Sure I know, that's the reason why I do not like distri-relay only.
Of course it is all a matter of bidding space, but I suppose 2NT,3♣ are available for other matters, because you are already with the 1♠ relay in a g.f. situation.

I do not know If you could break a relay sequence, do an asking in combination with a max/min cq. certain SP/CP, and pick up the final distribution relay if needed.
SP will be then difficult, RKC will do.

You know all the in-and-outs of Moscito much better than I do. Every system has it's pro and contra's within the framework of what you like or (have to) accept.

So please see my above remarks in that light.

Regards,
Marcel

[MarceldB]

Flame, on Jan 21 2006, 01:28 PM, said:

The bid has no logic, the strong hand showed a weak hand and the weak hand showed a strong hand, these two upside down mistakes got you by accident to something that has a chance.

Hello Flame,

I suppose (and hope) that you do not possess some knowledge of these kind of WOS (here with a built-in singleton Delta treatment). Otherwise I can not place your remark at all. Sorry that I have to speak plainly here, but in my opinion you have asked for.

Nevertheless I will explain the working of this WOS:

A singleton/void shape gives partner immediately information about a playable contract, because a singleton is usually accompanied by at least 3 cards in any other suit.
Whilst in a normal setting f.e. an 1♠ opening= 5+ card S, you do not know anything about the other suits (0-5 card).
Furthermore a balanced hand can evaluate his hand much better opposite a s/v shape as v.v.
A rather well known rule in relay-systems is that the balanced hand should be relayer.

Reason why those singleton-openings have so much priority in this system.

=====

After a Pass (13+) both partners start the sequence with telling their pointranges and in case of reaching a certain pointrange if one has a singleton/void shape (at the same time in which suit singleton/void or which Extreme one) or a balanced one. Balanced ones with the lowest bids possible so that the balanced hand still maintains R(relayer) in case partner has the lowest possible pointrange-level for a singleton/void shape. If not , the unlimited hand remains the R. Resulting that the weaker hand tells in an earlier stage his kind of shape in a sequence and there is a balance between the two point-ranges regarding the fact when to tell your partner I have a S/void shape which has a higher pointrange-level than yours. So the shape and maximum pointrange of the more stronger hand (=R) is unknown to the opponent.

f.e.

Pass (13+) - 1♥/2♥= s/v shapes 6-11p.

Pass(13+) - 1♣= part 6-11p. bal. or 12+ any
1♥-2♥= s/v shapes 13-16p.

1♣= 8-12p. s/v shapes - 1♦= positive relay
1♥-2♥

and in + opposite ++ or v.v. , same s/v openings 1 level higher.

===
in a balanced situation same mechanism:

Pass - 1♣
1♦= 13+ bal or ++ else - 1♥=12+, rest= 6-11p. bal. or extreme shapes 11-14p.

Pass - 1♣
1♦ - 1♥= 12+ any
2♣ 13-15p. certains bal. hands
thus the unlimited hand becomes relayer OR if the 1♥ bidder has a s/v shape 12-15p. with topcontrols, the balanced hand takes over the relayership again.

=====

If above system design is not your cup of tea, that's each one's free choice.

Trusting to have you informed about the "missing logic" and "upside down mistakes"
and I'm sorry that I reach the right contract so "by accident".

Marcel

[Flame]

I responded to the original post, reading it i think i was too hard with it, its a problem of choosing the right words which wasnt great here.

[jdeegan]

In my humble opinion, responder is totally to blame given that opener bid 4♥ over 3♥. I may be old fashioned, but on hands with no running suit as a source of tricks, I like to apply point count analysis during the auction just to see what ball park we are in. On this basis, responder hjas 16 HCP plus a stiff spade worth maybe three dummy points for a total of 19. The club suit is nice, but not a sure source of lots of tricks.

Opener's 4♥ call advertises a min. More important, after RKC you know he has the diamond ace, but didn't like his hand well enough to cue bid it over your 3♥. This bespeaks a hand worth 12-15 dummy points. 15 plus 19 = 34, not grand slam territory. It indicates that 13 tricks will be a stretch. On a finesse or worse - the actual hand