[badderzboy]

Scoring: MP

North opens Strong 2♣ and south bids 2♦

---

After 2♣-p-2♦, west bids 3♥?

Any merit in the 3♥ bid after a strong 2 opener and negative response?

North doubles (does he have a better bid?)....

Should south pass ?

Steve

[Winstonm]

This is a situation where agreements are critical and IMO standard agreements don't get the job done well. I suggest reverse pass/pull to handle these types of situations:

In essence:
1) opener bids a suit with no desire to play 3H doubled.
2) opener doubles when the preferece is to bid on but he can tolerate defending.
3) opener passes with a hand more interested in defending than bidding on.

In this sequence, opener would double to show a hand that would prefer to bid on but is strong enough to defend if responder has a weak balanced hand or something good in hearts. Here, responder has no real interest in defending so could simply bid 4H to allow opener to pick a suit. 5C should then end the auction.

Winston

[awm]

Against opponents with good agreements, I wouldn't risk the 3♥ call at equal colors. It does sometimes pay to bid against opponents strong auctions, since you take away their space and make it harder for them to reach the best spot; however this hand is somewhat iffy for a 3-level preemptive call and you're fairly likely to go for a number.

However, the fact remains that most people don't have good agreements about what to do after you interfere in their strong 2♣ auctions. Is double penalty? Takeout? Showing a balanced hand? As long as they don't know these things, you will win big rewards by bidding on hands like this.

Winston's suggestion seems reasonable, although the name "reverse pass/pull" seems highly confusing for an agreement that's basically "double is takeout, pass is forcing."

[Winstonm]

Quote

awm: Winston's suggestion seems reasonable, although the name "reverse pass/pull" seems highly confusing for an agreement that's basically "double is takeout, pass is forcing."

I don't know where the name originated, but I think it is because the normal meanings of double and pass are reversed. In standard forcing pass auctions, double shows a desire to defend - in reverse pass/pull, the double shows a hand more interested in bidding on yet with enough defense to make that an option should responder be weak, while pass shows a stricly defensive hand, and bid shows a hand unsuited to defend. So the double is not strictly takeout, but more suggestive of takeout. Something like: AKQJx, xx, AKJx, Ax - this is not a penalty double of 3H nor is it clearly a hand that wants to bid on opposite a 2434 no count - standardly, you would have to pass and then even if partner reopened with a double it is unclear what to do next. It is clearly better for the bigger hand by doubling to give the weaker hand two choices. Reversing pass/double allows this.


Winston

[whereagles]

The 3♥ bid is completely correct: NS are in a virtual game-force and haven't yet bid a suit, the hand has the right ODR and a singleton. This is the right time to strike and West siezed to the occasion.

As for how to bid afterwards, North can double 3♥ for take-out, after which South can bid 4♣, which North can raise to 5. Of course, this isn't clear-cut.. which justifies the preempt.

[Winstonm]

I would think 2H would be more common - too many losers to give the opponents 2 shots at the brass ring. 3H is the type of bid that works against less experienced partnerships; a good pair with solid agreements will either double when it is right or brush it aside and continue on.

Generally speaking, what you are trying to suggest with a 3H bid is a potential sacrifice base on fit and shape with little trump loser concern. A better 3H bid IMO would be more like: x, QJ1098xx, QJ10, xx.

Winston

[hrothgar]

For years, "Strong Club" players have had to deal with folks crashing our 1♣ with an amazing variety of crap. More recently, players seem to be extending this same philosophy regarding aggressive preempts to strong 2♣ openings.

To some extent, the higher level of the strong 2♣ offers some protection against preempts. The overcalls come in at a much higher level, exposing one to nastier penalties. Equally significant, strong 2♣ are typically much stronger tah storng club openings. Accordingly, its often reasonable to play methods based on a forcing pass giving substantial additional bidding space.

Balanced against this, the strong 2♣ pairs often don't have any kind of detailed defensive agreements. An aggressive preempt can pay off very nicely...

[whereagles]

Winstonm, on Dec 30 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

I would think 2H would be more common

Not for me, thankyouverymuch. 2♥ is sticking your neck out without creating any problem whatsoever to the opponents.

[luke warm]

badderzboy, on Dec 30 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

Any merit in the 3♥ bid after a strong 2 opener and negative response?

i like 3H fine, but prefer 3C (showing diamonds and hearts or hearts only)

[pbleighton]

"Not for me, thankyouverymuch. 2♥ is sticking your neck out without creating any problem whatsoever to the opponents."

Agree completely. I bid 3H without hesitation on this hand.

Peter

[whereagles]

Do the paperwork for retirement, Justin. You aged seriously

[Free]

We could use the agreements that I have for handling interference over strong 1♣ with my partner. Pass from north would be takeout, Dbl is penalty. Question here is: what do you do? Dbl with all your high cards, or pass with your distribution?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

If I have to act with the West hand,
I prefer 2H, it will have the same effect,
i.e. Partner will raise, if he has a fit,
and it will be cheaper if they start doubling
me.
North Dbl is ok, as long as it is defined as
takeout, else Pass.
Pass by North should be forcing.

Over North Pass, South should dbl,
and North will have to guess, ... most likely
he will Pass, it happens.

Marlowe

Edited: In case North passes, East will probably
raise to 4H, 4 card support + a side king should be
enough, so the catrasphic contract of 3Hx making is not
really the final result.

[Fluffy]

that just showed why 2♣ opening is a big mistake.

[Winstonm]

whereagles, on Dec 31 2005, 04:03 AM, said:

Do the paperwork for retirement, Justin. You aged seriously

Don't listen, Justin. You are simply wise beyond your years....

Winston

[the hog]

3H is a ridiculous bid unless playing against beginners. I have no great objections to 2H and would probably find it against most opponents.

[Kalvan14]

3♥ - at equal vulnerability - looks pretty aggressive, and can often back-fire.

N should double with a balanced/semi-balanced hand. Pass is forcing.

[jdeegan]

IMO 3♥ is aggressive, but not wrong. It surely works on this hand. North has an easy 4♣ bid, and south has plenty to raise to game, esp. after east bids 4♥. The idea that north might double the 3♥ call is just weird.

[hotShot]

N/S are in a near GF situation, but N has not defined a suit yet and south is very strong for a negative response. Seems to mee 2♦ is just a relay.
This is wests best chance to disturb opps bidding sequence. With single ♠ west has to assume that NS hold ♠. So 2♥ will not cause NS enough trouble.
After 3♥ they might not be able to find out if 3NT is a valid contract and if they don't have ♠ they will have to play the minors at 5 level.
OK, well established partnerships will have less trouble than pickup partnerships, but even they can hardly show suit, investigate 3NT and penalty double using the bidding space left.
Remember this is MP and not IMPs, so you can't get worse than 0%.
If indeed S 2♦ bid is negative, N holds game alone or E is not that weak.
I know that E might be worse, but there is a good chance that W will get away loosing just 1♠, 2♣, 1♦ and 0♥ making 3♥.