[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

P (1♦) P (1♠)
2♥ (2nt) 3♥ (4♠)
P (P) X

---

your lead, and why please

ty
jb

[inquiry]

Only two possible leads, ♦9 (if promises the ten, otherwise ♦T), or a club.

Partner didn't double this on spades (we have king, west has some and EAST has a lot). Nor did he double to "force" you to make the obvious lead from the bidding (a heart). So a heart lead is out.

Partner wanted you to work out what lead works the best here. One question if partner has values, why didn't he bid earlier? Options include, he had diamonds or he had clubs.

I choose to believe partner wants a diamond and that this double is lightner asking for diamond. An advantage to a diamond lead (over a club), is that partner can probably be able to work out a club shift after he wins diamond tricks. Likely, partner has singleton Diamond ACE or doubleton Diamond AQ, and thinks our hand will ahve a quick entry (club ACE, heart ACE, trump winner) for a diamond ruff. Let's dont' disappoint him.

[Winstonm]

To compete to the 3-level on this auction, partner has to have 4 hearts and shape - to follow with a double when no spade stack is possible can only mean Aces and shortness. The only hand I can visualize that is consistent with the bidding would be this:

Axx, xxxx, x, A10xxx.

I can give partner a diamond ruff O.K. but there is a hidden snag - if I lead a diamond declarer may well be able to win this in hand and take the heart finesses to dispose of a losing club.

With 3 stong hearts and a spade bid by his partner, it wouldn't be so unusual for LHO to bid 2N on a singleton spade, so RHO could hold:

QJ109xxx, x, KJxx, x.

But even if he holds a more normal QJ109xx, x, KJxx, xx,

I lead a club before one of these losers has a chance to go away. With trumps controlled in both hands, the ruff can wait.

Winston

[ArcLight]

East rebid Spades at the 4 level. That implies a self suffiecient spade suit (except for your King). Perhaps AQJxxxx or AQJTxx .
Its unlikely North has a Spade trick, unless its a ruff.

You only have 3 diamonds, so I dont think North is void.

North may be void in Hearts. Say 2-3 Clubs 2-3 Diamonds.

The penalty double implies North has a nice diamond holding behind West.
I hope its not based on holding the Ace of Hearts, because you may not get any heart tricks, or maybe just 1. I hope pard has something like AQ diamonds and the Ace of clubs. Could he have a void or shortness in a suit other than Spades? I don't think so.

I would lead a diamond.

Which one?
Leading the 10 is ok. (assuming top of sequence, no interest in the suit)

What about the 2 as a suit preference signal to return the lower suit, Clubs?
Normally a low card implies interest in having the suit returned. In this case pard can hopefully see you don't have anything in diamonds and think about what to return. If this may cause a problem, then just lead the 10.



>Axx, xxxx, x, A10xxx

Would this be a hand that you would bid a penalty double with?
I can see 4 Spades going down, but would you make a penalty double?

I see 2 tricks, pard overcalled hearts, but didnt open, so they may have 5 or 6, but maybe without the ace. I think there is a good chance declarer has no heart losers.




Also, if holding this:
>QJ109xxx, x, KJxx, x

Would it be worth bidding 4♠ as opposed to passing or bidding just 3♠?
Opps have distribution, you have defense.
Where will they get 9 tricks?
Pass and let them have a minus score. Maybe they make, probably they dont.

[mikeh]

I do not believe that it is possible to construct a hand on which everyone has their bid! 2N, if natural, should show a very good hand: say 2=3=4=4 or 2=3=5=3 or 2=3=6=2 with significant extras and ♥ stopped. After all, the 1♠ promised very little.

My ♠ King and, indeed, my ♣ strength make it almost impossible for N and E to each have their bids if West has his.

I am going to assume that West has made a bad bid (someone did, and my partners don't like it when I assume it was them). So I am going to assume that West has something like x AQx AKJxx xxxx (a hideous, ugly, silly 2N)

And I hope responder bid on something like Q10xxxxx x Qxx Qx, giving partner AJx Jxxx xx Axxx

I am prepared to swap the ♠J from N to E.

I am leading a ♣.

BTW, no way is this a Lightner double in my book. If it is, it is based on a ♦ void, but I see few hands on which he would bid 3♥ (rather than 4) with such a shape at favourable vulnerability: he has to be 3=4=0=6 or the like and 3♥ is just plain wrong on most of those holdings consistent with defence to 4♠.

[luis]

I have a particular view about this problem.
Pd's double says he has diamonds under control and since I have good pips in clubs declarer may have a serious problem in his contract.
Interestingly when I bid 2♥ I never promised the spade king, so holding the spade King I'm going to lead it, pd might have diamons guarded and the trump ace and need to draw trumps to destroy ruffs.
If leading the spade king is wrong then the double is wrong because I never promised the spade king with my 2♥ bid.

Luis

[han]

I can't follow your argument Luis, could you repeat it?

[mike777]

Banging down the K of clubs and hope I have an option to lead at trick two.

Btw 2nt was not alerted so I assume it is natural, extras, with only 2 spades. Are they playing support x's?

[luis]

Hannie, on Dec 9 2005, 12:08 AM, said:

I can't follow your argument Luis, could you repeat it?

Sure:

I have a particular view about this problem.
Pd's double says he has diamonds under control and since I have good pips in clubs declarer may have a serious problem in his contract.
Interestingly when I bid 2♥ I never promised the spade king, so holding the spade King I'm going to lead it, pd might have diamons guarded and the trump ace and need to draw trumps to destroy ruffs.
If leading the spade king is wrong then the double is wrong because I never promised the spade king with my 2♥ bid.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

When in doubt 'trust partner' Doubles of freely bid contracts show one of two hand types, a trump stack(unlikely 'looking' at your Kx of spades) or a void.

Partner has a diamond void and RHO bid 2NT with long diamonds or his partner has a diamond fit.

I lead a 'low' diamond to suggest that partner return a club after he ruffs.

Hi Jillybeans2

With all due respect Jillybeans2, bidding 2Hs with that 'suit and hand' between two 'unlimited' opponents is a very poor choice of bids.

Picture opener with the three missing Aces behind you kings and your hand might take @ 2 tricks in 2HXed on a bad day. Down six doubled will not normally be a good score.

You might hear (1D)-p-(1S)-2H-p-p-X(for takeout) and a 'real' bloodbath might follow.

Overcalls at the two level should normally have six card suits(or very strong five card suits)

Bidding in 'direct seat' between two opponents should have a semi solid long suit
against any decent pair.

With prior agreement, some pairs play that you can bid with 'just' a good suit for the 'lead', but that is 'not standard' without prior agreement.

Regards,
Robert

[han]

lol Luis, I was hoping for that reply.

[mikeh]

[quote name='Robert' date='Dec 8 2005, 10:01 PM']Hi everyone

When in doubt 'trust partner' Doubles of freely bid contracts show one of two hand types, a trump stack(unlikely 'looking' at your Kx of spades) or a void.

Partner has a diamond void and RHO bid 2NT with long diamonds or his partner has a diamond fit.

I lead a 'low' diamond to suggest that partner return a club after he ruffs.


I disagree with your premise. There are times one doubles for other reasons. Sometimes it is as simple as that you expect a bad score whether they make it or go down one undoubled, so you try to turn your bad score into a top. That is especially true of partscores. Other times you double because you expect to beat the contract if partner has her bid. I suspect that this is one of those times: see my post for my construction.

In particular, on this hand, consider partner's favourable vulnerability 3♥ bid. He did not double because he has one ruff coming, with or without an outside card. On any reasonable hand on which he can double 4♠ based on a void he might well have bid 4♥, not 3♥.

Now, I may be proved to be mistaken when the hand is posted, and it may be that he has a ♦ void, but I don't think that your suggestion as to the narrow meanings of a double is correct. You are certainly right in that your postd reasons may explain a double, but you are incorrect in suggesting that these are the only reasons.

I do agree with your suggestion that this was not a 2♥ overcall. In fact, I would go further and say that there are extremely few hands on which one would pass initially and then bid 2♥ on this sequence.

[luis]

Robert, Let me disagree with almost everything you said :-)

Quote

When in doubt 'trust partner'  Doubles of freely bid contracts show one of two hand types, a trump stack(unlikely 'looking' at your Kx of spades) or a void.

Not at all, in fact doubling with a trump stack is usually very silly and the void is not common and it is a missuse of the double. Doubles of freely bid contracts mean "I don't think they can make this" or "I think they might make this on the nose so I'm going to confuse them with a double"

Quote

Partner has a diamond void and RHO bid 2NT with long diamonds or his partner has a diamond fit.

Yes, and I'm the queen of Scotland.

Quote

With all due respect Jillybeans2, bidding 2Hs with that 'suit and hand' between two 'unlimited' opponents is a very poor choice of bids.

To me 2♥ was fine. I might even bid 2♥ on a weaker hand.

Quote

You might hear (1D)-p-(1S)-2H-p-p-X(for takeout) and a 'real' bloodbath might follow.

You need the 1♦ opener to have 4♥ for this to happen and the 1♠ bidder to find a reopening double. I think that your view is too pesimistic.
When you have 15 balanced pd might have a bad hand and it can go 1N p p X p p p for 1100 so what do you do? You don't open 1NT?

Quote

Overcalls at the two level should normally have six card suits(or very strong five card suits)

No

Quote

Bidding in 'direct seat' between two opponents should have a semi solid long suit
against any decent pair. 

No

Quote

With prior agreement, some pairs play that you can bid with 'just' a good suit for the 'lead', but that is 'not standard' without prior agreement.

You don't need an agreement to play bridge, do you?

I don't want to sound rude but your message sounded too "authoritative" like trying to teach Jillybean some bridge, so I have to say I disagree with everything you said and as we all know I might be wrong so I just present a different view and they can choose.

Luis

[Winstonm]

luis, on Dec 9 2005, 10:42 AM, said:

Robert, Let me disagree with almost everything you said :-)

Quote

When in doubt 'trust partner'  Doubles of freely bid contracts show one of two hand types, a trump stack(unlikely 'looking' at your Kx of spades) or a void.

Not at all, in fact doubling with a trump stack is usually very silly and the void is not common and it is a missuse of the double. Doubles of freely bid contracts mean "I don't think they can make this" or "I think they might make this on the nose so I'm going to confuse them with a double"

Quote

Partner has a diamond void and RHO bid 2NT with long diamonds or his partner has a diamond fit.

Yes, and I'm the queen of Scotland.

Quote

With all due respect Jillybeans2, bidding 2Hs with that 'suit and hand' between two 'unlimited' opponents is a very poor choice of bids.

To me 2♥ was fine. I might even bid 2♥ on a weaker hand.

Quote

You might hear (1D)-p-(1S)-2H-p-p-X(for takeout) and a 'real' bloodbath might follow.

You need the 1♦ opener to have 4♥ for this to happen and the 1♠ bidder to find a reopening double. I think that your view is too pesimistic.
When you have 15 balanced pd might have a bad hand and it can go 1N p p X p p p for 1100 so what do you do? You don't open 1NT?

Quote

Overcalls at the two level should normally have six card suits(or very strong five card suits)

No

Quote

Bidding in 'direct seat' between two opponents should have a semi solid long suit
against any decent pair. 

No

Quote

With prior agreement, some pairs play that you can bid with 'just' a good suit for the 'lead', but that is 'not standard' without prior agreement.

You don't need an agreement to play bridge, do you?

I don't want to sound rude but your message sounded too "authoritative" like trying to teach Jillybean some bridge, so I have to say I disagree with everything you said and as we all know I might be wrong so I just present a different view and they can choose.

Luis

Is this the right room for an argument?

[Winstonm]

Concerning the 2H bid - it would never occur to me to make this bid - which is probably why I do poorly when I'm swindled into playing a matchpointed game.

IMO, this bid has nothing going for it - it is way too dangerous to bid in this "live" auction where neither opponent has limited his hand; however, this may be the right sort of thing to do at matchpoints these days in keeping with the in and out fast ideas.

As you get older, you like things simple - and matchpoints is not a simple game.

Winston

[Robert]

Hi Mike777

Perhaps I wrote my post without making myself clear. In my partnerships, this is the current view that is used in our bridge game.

I am well aware that other players(and myself) will double contracts because they believe that they have been 'fixed' or that their partner should have extra defensive values.

I have seen people mishear auctions and double and later find out much to their surprise that the bidding was not what they had heard/seen.

I would never attempt to impose my views on anyone. I do express my opinions which frequently draw heated replies.

Please feel free to comment negatively or even positively on any of my posts.

Several people have already recieved a public or private apology 'if' I have misread/miswritten or simply been misunderstood. Sometimes late at night or when I am tired, I do not write a clear idea of what I wanted to express.

If you feel that you deserve an apology either in private or public, please contact me and I will correct the situation.

I consider your post to be a very positive addition to my comments which were only meant to explain an opinion that I hold in my partnerships.

I trust I have cleared away any(some?) misunderstanding that might have occured.

Best Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Hi Lois

Please feel free to disagree with anything I say. You will not be in a small group 'if' you disagree with me, an American football stadium would not hold that crowd.

I happen to disagree with a recent post of yours.

You might want to ask Jlall if doubling with a trump stack is wrong. Many writers suggest that you should double 'holding' 0-1 trumps if the auction suggests that the other pair is in a 4-4 fit. They are getting a 4-1(5-0!) break and the auction often suggests that their values are limited.
1NT-2C-2SD-3S-4S Begs to be doubled on suspicion.

If the auction reveals or suggests that the cards are lying badly or that suits are breaking poorly. I suspect Jlall and I will be foaming at the mouth to X 'in tempo' of course and with no apparent change of attitude.

Jlall mentioned suidical about that 2H overcall, I erased a 'death wish' comment.

I have sent last night a PM to jillybean2 expressing my concerns about that overcall
style. I also added that my comments that I hoped that jillybean2 would take my suggestion as a helpful comment. I recommended Mike Lawrence's book on Overcalls. If you disagree with my suggestions, you appear to also disagree with many of Mr. Lawrences suggestions.

Anyone may play any style or method and I certainly support you overcalling on a somewhat weaker hand 'if' that is your chosen style.

Opener needs x AJx AKxxx Axxx or xx AJx AJxxx AJxx
With 4 trump, even fairly minimum hands will produce large penalties. If I
hear my partner reopen with a double. We do play support doubles, so that
1D-1S-(2H) overcall-p has definite 'ominous warning' signs. What do you think your chances would be after 1D-1S-(2H)-p-p-X showing 9+/10+HCP?

If I hold 4 hearts, you are going for the same 'ride.'

I do play those methods and I play them quite well. I like to double and defend. I learned to defend at the one level playing Blue Team Club in the early 70s. I also learned to play good defense playing weak 1NT while playing several decades of KS.

Ask Jlall what he plays in this auction with his partners?

I am an optimist, I will continue to use those tactics as long as people want to bid in my 'live' auctions.

I have played 8-10 1NT and 9-11 1NT openings and you think that I am scared to bid?

Please do not follow my suggestions, I would not presume to encourage you to change from your chosen style.

I am glad that we had this chance to exchange views. Whoever decides to follow either view is fine with me. Thank you for the polite reply. Gentlemen and gentlewomen may agree to disagree.

Best Regards,
Robert

[awm]

I'd lead a diamond. I expect that partner has diamond cards in this auction, since usually a pushy-seeming double implies that partner thinks things are offside. I'd be very suprised if LHO had running diamonds -- this seems like kind of a weird hand for 2NT and I really think partner should have diamond AQ or KJ or something like that in this auction. I'm not afraid of a crossruff because I don't think LHO is ruffing anything. If RHO wants to ruff a couple diamonds in the long hand and burn all dummy's entries to do so, well, good for him. We have at least one trump winner to get back in and cash out later.

Mostly I just don't want to find a lead that blows a trick (and the contract) and leading from a king could easily be that lead.

I agree with others that this is not a "lightner" double. The 2♥ bid is somewhat frisky, but keep in mind we're favorable at matchpoints and already a passed hand. Under these particular conditions I agree with the call. Certainly this is not a bid I'd make at unfavorable or at IMPs. I'd expect that those who disagree violently with this bid are mostly the same people who greatly prefer imps to matchpoints... and that those who think this bid is normal or automatic tend to prefer matchpoints to imps.