[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

---

1C-1H
1NT-3H
4H-4NT
5D
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3H: GF
5D: 1 ace of 5
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You play that 3H is GF. Not sure that partner still knows this (at least he did not alert it - not sure if it needs to be alerted). You asked aces and partner did show one.
- Now you can ask for ♥Q with 5♠. Partner will bid 5NT without the Q, 5♣ with the Q or anything else with the Q and the K of that suit (eg 5♦ with ♥Q and ♦K).
- or you can bid 5NT to asks for Kings.
What do you bid:
- assuming that partner did forget that 3♥ was forcing and so he has extra's.
- assuming that partner knew that 3♥ was forcing.
... and what answer do you need to continue to 6 or 7?

[Robert]

Hi kgr

I am just curious. What do you bid to invite with long hearts 'if' 3Hs is forcing?

Bidding 2Hs is to play.

Natural bids normally do not need to be alerted.

If you are thinking about bidding seven, you need to find the heart Queen.

Partner might have raised your forcing 3H jump rebid on xx or Jx or xxx and playing opposite any of those holdings in 'seven' is not a real good idea.

If partner does not know the system(that 3Hs was forcing) I do not think that a Queen asking bid is a good idea. Why should he remember exotic bidding 'if' he cannot be trusted to remember our basic rebids?

Assuming that partner can be trusted, ask for the trump queen. Unless you have
an unusual agreement here, asking for the trump Queen is a Grand slam try showing all five of the Aces are present(counting the trump King as the fifth ace)

Partner is expected to show a side King 'only' if he has no 'side' source of tricks. If he holds AKQJ10x(or AKQxx or AKQJ) of clubs for example, he should just bid seven hearts holding the trump Queen.

If partner does not jump to seven hearts, I sign off in six hearts. My asking for the trump Queen was a Grand Slam attempt and partner claims 'not' to have a source of tricks for seven 'if' he does not bid seven.

Trust your partner.

Regards,
Robert

[kgr]

Robert, on Dec 11 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

I am just curious. What do you bid to invite with long hearts 'if' 3Hs is forcing?
Bidding 2Hs is to play.

I direct 2H (1C-2H) would be weak, showing 4-8 HCP (not sure this is the best range?)
1C-1H-1NT-2H is invitational and therefor the 3H bid was GF.

Quote

If partner does not know the system(that 3Hs was forcing) I do not think that a Queen asking bid is a good idea. Why should he remember exotic bidding 'if' he cannot be trusted to remember our basic rebids?

He have this agreement longer then the 3H GF agreement. Your partner will remember the Q-asking bid.

Quote

Partner is expected to show a side King 'only' if he has no 'side' source of tricks. If he holds AKQJ10x(or AKQxx or AKQJ) of clubs for example, he should just bid seven hearts holding the trump Queen.

Good point. I will tell my partner.

BTW: partner will bid 6♦ (show ♥Q and ♦K)

[luke warm]

i'm not crazy about 1c : 1h : 1nt : 2h being invitational, either.. how to bid a 6 heart, 7 hcp hand? or even a 5 heart hand? i also think it would have been better for opener to cue a diamond or club control prior to 4h, if he held one.. then you'd know he denies one by bidding 4h... anyway, on the bidding given i'd just bid 6h

[Fluffy]

Always 5♠ if you wanna play a grand, what I would bid is 6♥

[pclayton]

Ask for the Trump queen. 7 is still possible. I think you have a typo in your responses to 5♠.

I expect 5N over 5♠ to show it, but DENY either minor King (Qxx, Qxx, Qxx, AQJx is about the only hand that fits, give or take a few Jacks. Slam is 50/50).

If pard shows the K♣ and the Q♥, I try 6♦ which is last-train in my book. Pard bids on with the K♦, Q♣ or another 'surprise'. I wouldn't consider the Q♠ to be a surprise, although a random maximum should be.

Over 6♦ I have a small problem. If pard has specifically ♠Q?? ♥Q? ♦KQx ♣Axx?? we've missed a cold grand but its hard to bid.

[Elianna]

kgr, on Dec 11 2005, 02:15 AM, said:

- assuming that partner did forget that 3♥ was forcing and so he has extra's.

You may not take into consideration partner's alerts (or nonalerts) so, while the answer to this question is relevant, in that you may be asking what bids are SUGGESTED by partner's non-alert, this should lead you to NOT bid those bids (if there are logical alternatives) because, as I said, you may not take information from partner's alerts/nonalerts.

Sorry for the long sentence.

[mikeh]

I hate the methods We have no idea if partner has 2 or 3 ♥, and bidding a grand on AKxxxx opposie Qx is far from clear. While we always think, in the auction, that the choice is 6 or 7 on these hands, it is amazing how often the opps miss slam. Thus partner may well have opened a borderline hand (note that he did not cue 4♣ over 3♥). Maybe the opps won't push for slam if partner passes and cannot conveniently show good, in context, ♥ support.

If he held Qxx, then I'd want to try 5♠ and hope for 6♣ (the ♣K and ♥Q) and then make the try with 6♦. But if he holds only Qx♥, I am happy to be in small slam.

If he holds Qxx Qxx Kxx AKxx, he should have bid 4♣, not 4♥. Or with Qxx Qxx KQx AJxx, again a clear 4♣ call. There are minimums that might not bid 4♣ and that would still offer a decent play for 7 but few of them contain Qxx of trump.

So I settle for 6♥, rather than bidding 5♠.

BTW, I am never going to choose my bid on the basis that partner may have thought that 3♥ was invitational. if he did, then he will remember next time.

As for my rant re methods: consider how easier this auction would be if you had been able to bid an artificial gf 2♦ over 1N. If partner has 3♥, he will bid 2♥ and you could raise to 3♥, setting trump and strongly suggesting slam.

If he did not bid 3♥, you would still bid 3♥, but you would know that grand was against the odds. I once read, and have long believed that to bid a grand at imps you should expect it to have about a 75% chance of making. Needing a 3-2 split makes it unattractive.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

always assume partner knows the system.
Ask yourself: Would you know, he did not alert,
if you played behind screens? No.

Ask for the Queen.

You decided to play 6H at the moment you did
bid 4NT, as long as partner showes the Ace of clubs.
Partner will raise with xx to 4H, so the Queen
is important, if you want to play 7.
Maybe you discover the magic cards, i.e.
you discover the Queen of hearts, and the
Kind of clubs and diamonds.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: The real question is, did you take advantage of
the failure to alert 3H, as you did bid 4NT?
I think this is a style issue, I would have passed,
but a case could be made, that you did use UI,
with 3 card support (Qxx) and the Ace of Club
+ King in Clubs or diamond he may have bid 4C / 4D
as a cue.

[kgr]

---

This was partners hand. 7♥ is lay-down, mainly because of the ♠ ruff. I stopped in 6♥. Asking for ♥Q would have get a 6♦ response from my partner. (6♣ would be ♥Q, but no K).
Additional questions:
- It was suggested to use 2♦ as GF (this is 2-way checekback I think). This looses the natural 2♦ with a weak 5-4. Do you think it is more useful to have the GF option?
- Trump Q ask: In this case it would have been better to play 6♥ as ♥Q without side K and 5NT as no ♥Q. I understand that this is the suggested structure:
-- 1 over 1: Not the Q
-- back to lowest trump level: trump Q and no side K
Is this always the best stucture for Q ask or does it depend on the level where the Q-ask bid is done?
- partner should always cue with above minimum...or just always?
- Would you have found 7♥ here?

[Fluffy]

kgr, on Dec 11 2005, 11:49 PM, said:

- It was suggested to use 2♦ as GF (this is 2-way checekback I think). This looses the natural 2♦ with a weak 5-4. Do you think it is more useful to have the GF option?

Yes it is, when you have 5 card major you just play on it opposite a balanced hand.

Anyway althou I play 2♦ frocing I would still bid 3♥.

Partner made a mistake, he shouldn't bid 4♥, his hand is much better than that, even if he was not sure about the meaning of 3♥ cuebidind costs nothing. He just forgot

[Kalvan14]

With the posted hand, N should have cue-bidded 4♣ over a forcing 3♥.
Now I am starting to believe that (a) N forgot that 3♥ was forcing ( you probably used UI (after 3♥-4♥, the small slam might be in doubt; thinking of a grand would be really unusual).

I would suggest you to reconsider your methods. It looks like you are sacrificing too much to have a chance to play 2♦ with a weak 5-4