[jillybean]

sceptic, on Dec 7 2005, 11:34 AM, said:

I would not like to see an exam to get into this club as I could fail or pass on a good or bad day but I am sure I would benefit from the lessons

If some of the BIL teachers were to teach at this level would the time available to them take them away from the BIL (I do hope not)

Sustainability?, did not someone else try something along these lines

Maureen has successfully managed BIL since it started with the help of some very nice hardworking people, she is also a tireless trooper and I have to take my hat off to her.  I hope you realise what you are taking on Jilly, if you make half the success of this as Maureen has of BIL, I will take my hat off to you as well.

I also hope that lessons are not scheduled along side BIL lessons

I won't respond to the general tone of this note but I will say I am not starting a private club. If you had read my earlier posts I think I made this quite clear.

The sessions will be scheduled to fit in with the people who have offered to run them.

jb

[pclayton]

jillybean2, on Dec 7 2005, 08:25 AM, said:

pclayton, on Dec 7 2005, 08:37 AM, said:

JB:

Whatever gets decided, I'll help out.  For now I'll exit the screening debate. Unfortunately this thread has become argumentative and I fear it will be counterproductive for what is a worthwhile end. 

If screening is used, I'll assist and if you just want players to have an 'open thinking' session, I'll help out with that too.

I'm not in a position these days to put together a full blown lesson plan however.

Thanks , I will take you up on your offer of a thinking session

I will just start off with some specific sessions and tournaments+review on a casual, as available basis. I am happy to coordinate, advertise and organize the experts to get these sessions going. I can run tournaments and manage the hands for review at a teaching table afterwards, I could look after a table, organize victims, errr players etc.

We have 2 sessions ready to go just waiting for confirmation of date/time.

I am painfully aware of some of the pitfalls of running "private clubs" and I want to avoid falling into the same trap. Maybe in time a new club will be created, people like to belong to something and the club structure does add value. The committee can then address all these sticky issues.

jb

YW

Voice would be a great feature for this. Instead of madly typing all of our thoughts as we go through a hand it would cool if we could just verbalize as it is our turn to play.

When I participated in a few of these in BIL, thats what took the longest and was most aggravating; because a LOT goes through your mind as you think about a deal and it would neat if those watching could just sort of 'tune-in' as if your brain was a radio. Freaky but cool!

And effective too. If I was watching Fred, thats exactly how I'd like it to be portayed.

[Blofeld]

pclayton, on Dec 7 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

Voice would be a great feature for this. Instead of madly typing all of our thoughts as we go through a hand it would cool if we could just verbalize as it is our turn to play.

When I participated in a few of these in BIL, thats what took the longest and was most aggravating; because a LOT goes through your mind as you think about a deal and it would neat if those watching could just sort of 'tune-in' as if your brain was a radio. Freaky but cool!

And effective too. If I was watching Fred, thats exactly how I'd like it to be portayed.

That's an absolutely lovely idea. Though I've no idea of the practicalities of the thing.

[jillybean]

you could hook up some people via messenger so people can hear you think, (and breath and swallow and squirm..... )

[Thymallus]

A wise Man said earlier in the thread

"5) *** To me most important *** The expert can watch as 4 players play, asking them private questions to focus their thoughts. If they make a bad lead, he can ask them about it. He can ask players to stop and explain their thoughts on the hand so far.
Maybe you don't even need an expert for this, just an intermediate, who can ask some routine questions to help focus the players attention."


From an educational point of view this approach is by far the strongest. To get really "deep learning" you need to be involved in the process and to get the teaching at the point of difficulty (education/psych speak : cognitive dissonance)
and this promotes the most lasting effects.

Watching others simply is not as effective.

I can show you how to repair a hernia, but you wouldn't be able to fix one on your own. I can guide you through how to repair a hernia yourself and you will be much more equipped to do it yourself. (btw there is good evidence to show that a trainee hernia repair done in this manner is as good as an expert op!)

Reading books, kibbing experts etc is no substitute for real on the job teaching.

[ArcLight]

>I can show you how to repair a hernia, but you wouldn't be able to fix one on your own. I can guide you through how to repair a hernia yourself and you will be much more equipped to do it yourself.

Call me crazy, but something makes me think you are a doctor!

In any case I volunteered to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.
I'll post feed back.

[42]

Good morning!
First of all I want to express that jillybean2's idea is great!
But I must admit that I am a bit scared because of:

Skill level: it depends on the context and the field you usually play in. I rated myself advanced, using the BBO definition. I would rate myself intermediate in a field of experts and beginner to idiot when I am tired. There is no definition what an intermediate+ / advanced player must know, some others mentioned that point earlier in this topic. On the way to become perfect I have the picture of a tree in mind. For the early basics you have the trunk, and with improvement the branches grow, one tree has many small branches 1m from the ground, another some bigger 1m from the ground and many smaller above 2,50m. What I want to say is that advanced player A must not necessarily have exactly the same knowledge as well as abilities as player B although they are both able to win even bigger tournaments.
The intention for visiting lectures for advanced has a very big variety: one player wants to practise on defence, one on counting, one on psychology at the table, one on squeezes, whatsoever. But this is easily solved by every participant himself who decides which lesson to join and which not, to stay or to leave.

Theory and practice: one might have read many, many books and know a lot about the theory of the game and therefore think that he/she is advanced or better (the books for intermediate/advanced players are already far too easy). All that does not necessarily imply that this person is an "advanced" player also at the table.

"Human nature":
a.) student: let's say you rate yourself advanced. You sit down at a practising table with 100 kibs. You start to play and make an error (or take a different line to what others think is correct) which is commentated immediately by the expert or at least 60 kibs. Isn't that mental stress for the players at the table? I've seen already many, many comments during vugraph or kibbing like "how did he/she get a star?" "Expert???" "And this person rates him-/herself advanced??" etc. Imo it is easier to "undress" oneself as beginner or intermediate.
b.) teacher: there is a nearly 100% guarantee that at least some of the visitors / students want to show the teacher that and where he errs and where the hammer hangs. It is a vision that people are just thankful for the service and listen and learn in modesty, taking what they need and declining silently what they don't. Look what happens to the most TDs who spend their time and knowledge for others.

I don't want to say that the idea is a dead born child, by no means!! I just want to express that all persons involved should carefully plan the format for the lessons to avoid disappointment. So this are my suggestions:
-The expert who offers a lesson should not allow everybody to talk at the table because that distracts the concentration for all. Perhaps a co-moderator, who collects and filters questions and decides which are interesting for the whole audience, would be an idea?
- The players who sit down to participate as students could get an anonymous nick like the vugraph operators. I don't know if that is possible by the software...?
- I personally like Mauro's idea of 4 experts playing and expressing their thoughts during bidding and play very much. My personal experience with watching vugraph is that seeing all 4 hands is not good for improvement. So perhaps the students kibitz only 1 expert who thinks aloud, experts rotate seats. That has the advantage that there is no overwhelming information by 4 persons at the same time, and 3 experts can rest
- I remember that I watched some time ago a lesson where someone prepared hands for a specific topic. It worked like Fred's learning programs. Great, but A LOT of work for the teacher.
Have a nice day, folks
Caren

[Thymallus]

ArcLight, on Dec 7 2005, 04:59 PM, said:

In any case I volnteerded to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.
I'll post feed back.

I confess to being deeply jealous of the lucky quartet.

In order to cement the learning that takes place in the session the players should make a record of where and how they went wrong and how things could be improved. This can then serve as a permanent reminder of the lesson and a trigger to go out and identify the next area for each of them to work upon.

"Reflective Diaries " like this are a powerful, and well validated, tool for adult learners.

[Thymallus]

ArcLight, on Dec 7 2005, 04:59 PM, said:

In any case I volnteerded to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.
I'll post feed back.

I confess to being deeply jealous of the lucky quartet.

In order to cement the learning that takes place in the session the players should make a record of where and how they went wrong and how things could be improved. This can then serve as a permanent reminder of the lesson and a trigger to go out and identify the next area for each of them to work upon.

"Reflective Diaries " like this are a powerful, and well validated, tool for adult learners.

[Gerben42]

I know that zillions of kibitzers can make you nervous. My first time playing on BBO Vugraph I am sure I did not play like "someone doing well in a national event". Simply because of the nerves. But the second time it was better

[han]

I plan to have my lesson Saturday at 4pm Wisconsin time (2 pm West coast, 5 pm East coast, 23:00 Netherlands ).

[ArcLight]

>I plan to have my lesson Saturday at 4pm Wisconsin time (2 pm West coast, 5 pm East coast, 23:00 Netherlands

Where? In BIL?

[jillybean]

The lesson will be held in the Main Bridge Club, add Hannie or me to your buddies and you will easily find the table. It is targeted to Intermediate+/Advanced players but open for anyone to kibitz.

If you are interested in participating message me on forum and I will add you to the list, first come, first served basis. Expect to do some taxing brain work if you havent done much on counting before!

thanks
jb

[kenberg]

I would like to be included. I believe I can make the 5:00 (Est) starting time but this is not certain. I will log on, join Hannie, and see what happens.

I am not clear on how one becomes one of the goats (the ones whose play gets publicly scrutinized and corrected) but I have long understood I am in need of such and would happily accept such a role. Indeed I get nervous under the lgihts but so what. I would also be happy to instead observe other struggling souls, and I know well the dictum about stones and glass houses.


Looking forward to the big event. Thanks greatly to JB for getting this going.


Ken

[jillybean]

kenberg, on Dec 8 2005, 03:12 PM, said:

Indeed I get nervous under the lgihts but so what. I would also be happy to instead observe other struggling souls, and I know well the dictum about stones and glass houses.

Funny, thats what everyone is saying
I know I can't function too well with people watching,,especially Ben

jb

[kenberg]

I had to leave after a bit more than an hour but I enjoyed it greatly. Thanks to Hannie and to Jillybean.


I hope we can do more of this.

Ken

[Double !]

I thought that today's lesson on counting a hand was excellent, that all of the participants showed a lot of guts by sitting at the table, and that the session was conducted masterfully. WDs and kudos to Hannie (er. Prof. Hannie - "yo, teach!"), and to JB for first suggesting and then setting this whole thing up. There was a fair amount of discussion in the peanut gallery about the various hands including bidding decisions on some of the hands. So, in reality, many more people participated than only those that sat at the table, and many people benefitted from this joint enterprise.
I, for one, look forward to the next endeavor/ lesson.

WD everyone.

DHL

[han]

I think we will do this more often, probably again before the end of the year. There were a lot of people I thought, and many forum members came to watch (also some who were just dropping in to say hi, which was nice). Matt provided analysis for the kibitzers, which meant I only had to talk with the players. Ben was there too and whispered some pointers into my ear. I had a lot of fun.

[jillybean]

Great session thanks Han, it was well received and hopefully we will see some more.

I will see if we can get some tournaments or ‘think with ____’ sessions started with some of the other volunteers.