[whereagles]

Kalvan14, on Dec 5 2005, 05:31 AM, said:

It beats me how a passed hand might invoke a "serious 3N"

Well, that's not strange at all. It's actually very good bidding

A serious 3NT doesn't need to show 13 points or so, only that bidder has a hand that, given what he already showed, is fit for a slam.

[Chamaco]

Some coments:

1. I agree with other posters who comented that it's weird to see a passed hand responder to the strong club taking charge and being the one who asks shape and the like

2. However, I do not think that the use of serious 3NT by passed hand is competely out of place.
It might be used to show a max or minimum hand.

After opener has shown club shortness, I would expect

x-Axxx-Qxxx-Axxx

or

Qx-Axxx-xxx-Axxx

These hands seem to offer good slam chances, so the simple use of RKCB should give the appropriate info.

Please note that I do NOT expect pard to bid a serious NT (consuming a full 3 level), if he has an indifferent 10 count.

[Kalvan14]

I'm quite convince that passed hand needs both aces for going forward to a slam try; I fail to understand why 3N should be better than cue-bidding 3♠ or 4♣.

Additionally, a 4-4 in trumps would be a bit light for a hand which needs ruffing a few clubs.

[whereagles]

Kalvan14, on Dec 5 2005, 10:13 AM, said:

I fail to understand why 3N should be better than cue-bidding 3♠ or 4♣.

Being a passed hand, there is obviously some redundancy in your bids, since 3♠, 4♣ and 3NT overlap considerably. Therefore choosing which bid to pick becomes more a matter of feeling than of technique.

[hotShot]

What are the distributional limits to the mini-NT ?
Partner may have a void and 10HCP or some other distribution that does not fit NT and is to weak to open.

[han]

So partner has something like xx AJxx xxx Axxx (or worse: 3-4-3-3 or 4-4-3-2 shape). I think two aces certainly qualify as a serious slam try for a passed hand. 6H seems against the odds.

[arrows]

not talking about whether to get 6H, just what to bid over 3NT

[han]

I think my answer is clear.

[Kalvan14]

whereagles, on Dec 5 2005, 05:46 AM, said:

Kalvan14, on Dec 5 2005, 10:13 AM, said:

I fail to understand why 3N should be better than cue-bidding 3♠ or 4♣.

Being a passed hand, there is obviously some redundancy in your bids, since 3♠, 4♣ and 3NT overlap considerably. Therefore choosing which bid to pick becomes more a matter of feeling than of technique.

Actually I would say that it is a matter of technique rather than feeling: 3N is not just a way of wagging your tail, and saying you are happy. It must also convey a message to your partner.
Now the message you appear to be conveying is that you have no cue-bid available in spades; I would also say that you appear not to hold the ♣A (otherwise why not show it?).

Have we found the rightful heir to the "joyous" 4N? In these modern days, we have the "serious" 3N

[whereagles]

Kalvan14, on Dec 5 2005, 10:54 PM, said:

Actually I would say that it is a matter of technique rather than feeling: 3N is not just a way of wagging your tail, and saying you are happy. It must also convey a message to your partner.

That may be clear to you, but maybe partner thinks otherwise. Maybe he's in fact just wiggling his tail.

Unless I was 100% sure I agreed with pard 3NT bid indicates a lack of spade and club cue, and that he remembes the agreement, I wouldn't trust 3NT to be a technically correct bid.

[Chamaco]

The "serious 3NT" indeed denies a spade cue, but does NOT deny a club control.

Using "serious" 3NT , the immediate cue bypassing 4C would DENY a good hand (in the context of being a passed hand), so the serious 3NT can STILL have a cue in clubs, but too strong for an immediate 4C.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

Partner has 'one' Ace and is still bidding a serious 3NT*. If he passed up a chance to show his spade Ace, all that is left is the Ace of clubs.

There are a number of ways to suggest 'maximum values' in a major auction 'without' bidding a serious 3NT holding only one possible Ace.

Opener never made any move towards slam so a serious 3NT* holding one possible Ace is a 'serious' overbid IMHO.

Maybe another 'look' at the given methods will allow some changes that will permit opener to express his values and 'allow' responder to show/deny values in the context of being a passed hand. That jump to 2NT without showing the main feature of the hand(the spade suit) could sometimes lead to a missed slam.

If opener can show his spades and follow up by 'bidding around the clock.'
He can describe a powerful hand with 5S 4H and short clubs.

Responder would now be well placed to devalue club honors and count any spade or heart cards as pure gold.

Opener never 'limited' his hand so responder is using up bidding space very rapidly while 'taking away' the bidding room that opener might need to show his shape and values.

Regards,
Robert

[hrothgar]

Robert, on Dec 6 2005, 03:47 PM, said:

Hi everyone

Partner has 'one' Ace and is still bidding a serious 3NT*. If he passed up a chance to show his spade Ace, all that is left is the Ace of clubs.

Funny, I could have sworn that the Heart suit had an Ace as well...

[PMetsch]

I vote other. I have 4 keyards an extra king and queen and partner is looking for slam. Just bid 6♥ and stop giving more info to the opps. Grand slam is against the odds if partner cannot have ♠K or 5♥s.

[Fluffy]

When did partner say he was having balanced hand?

[Kalvan14]

Chamaco, on Dec 6 2005, 05:41 AM, said:

The "serious 3NT" indeed denies a spade cue, but does NOT deny a club control.

Using "serious" 3NT , the immediate cue bypassing 4C would DENY a good hand (in the context of being a passed hand), so the serious 3NT can STILL have a cue in clubs, but too strong for an immediate 4C.

I know that, Cherdano, but the choice is between 3N and 4♣: which is better?The point is that the guy is a passed hand, and by definition limited. I would add, since it was given as a condition, a passed hand that would have opened 1NT with 10-12 balanced. So I would expect him to be non-balanced.
I would assume he cannot have 6♥, otherwise he would have opened pre-emptive.
If he holds a hand like
x AJxxx Qxxxx Ax
he would certainly be entitled to a serious 3N, but I would anticipate he would have opened.

xx AJxxx Qxxx Ax or xx AJxx Qxxxxx Ax would make sense for a 3N

I would submit that with either hand I would prefer 4♣. The only hand with which I would bid 3N would be one or the two above, with singleton spade.

[han]

Kalvan14, on Dec 6 2005, 07:10 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Dec 6 2005, 05:41 AM, said:

The "serious 3NT" indeed denies a spade cue, but does NOT deny a club control.

Using "serious" 3NT , the immediate cue bypassing 4C would DENY a good hand (in the context of being a passed hand), so the serious 3NT can STILL have a cue in clubs, but too strong for an immediate 4C.

I know that, Cherdano

[Kalvan14]

Hannie, on Dec 6 2005, 09:34 PM, said:

Kalvan14, on Dec 6 2005, 07:10 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Dec 6 2005, 05:41 AM, said:

The "serious 3NT" indeed denies a spade cue, but does NOT deny a club control.

Using "serious" 3NT , the immediate cue bypassing 4C would DENY a good hand (in the context of being a passed hand), so the serious 3NT can STILL have a cue in clubs, but too strong for an immediate 4C.

I know that, Cherdano

Seriously, Hannie: are you trolling me?

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

Both of your posted possible 'example' hands have 5 card heart suits. The person posting the questions stated that the bidding denied 5 hearts because a 3H would show 5Hs and that bid was 'skipped' to bid a serious 3NT.

Unless there is some unknown meaning in this auction, partner should have shown his 5th heart with a three bid so that his partner could cuebid the spade Ace and he could now bid a serious 3NT* with some degree of confidence.

I play a Big Club system and would have opened both 11HCP hands with 5-5 or
4-6 shapes.

Most 'light opening' big club systems would open the bidding with that hand.

Hi hrothgar

I must have gotten carried away with the 'serious' bidding here. There is indeed a heart Ace missing. Sorry.

Regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

Hi, Robert.
There is a single hand I postulated that feature 4 hearts only (together with 6 diamonds, because otherwise I am frankly unable to design a passed hand which would have the strength to invoke a 3N).
My interpretation is that the 3N bidder might have skipped the confirmation of the 5th heart to bid 3N: I may be wrong here.

I agree with you, btw: all big clubs systems would open an unbalanced hand with 10 red cards and 10-11 HCP including 2 aces.

This makes 3N possible just with: x Axxx Qxxxx Axx.