[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

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You play competition. Around the average level of your country. So opps are no experts, but also no beginners.
Your partner opens 2♥ Muiderberg and RHO passes. Partner has 5 card ♥ and a 4 card minor and 5 to 10 HCP. Normally he has most of his points in his long suits, but you know that with a less nice 5/4 he peobably will still open 2♥. He can max have a 3 card ♠.
You have fillowing agreements:
- 2NT asks his minor
- 3♣ asks his points (3♦: 5-6; 3♥: 7-8; 3♠: 9-10)
- 3♥ preemptive
- 2NT followed by 3♥ is limit raise in ♥
How do you rate following bids:
- Pas
- 2NT
- 3♣
- 3NT
And what is your bidding plan after 2NT/3♣?

[Free]

What is 3♦ used for??

I'd change my agreements, since 3♣ asking for 'point range' is quite useless imo. Play full relays over muiderberg, and end up in 6.

With these agreements, I'd probably bid 2NT, you never know p has ♣s, and end up in 4♥ I guess...

[Kalvan14]

I play Muiderberg too, but with a completely different set of answers. Partner should be close to maximum, since N-S are vul. vs. non-vul.
I am always reluctant to play for the perfect hand; and with your method you will know the points, but not where they are.
I would bid 5♣, to play.
At IMP there is not even the lure of 3N.

With my method, I would bid 2N (Lebensohl style: opener bids 3♣ with diamonds as 2nd suit, and 3♦ with clubs. Over the expected 3♣, I would bid 4♣ (forcing - imposes trump suit and asks for Q bids).
Btw, 3♦ is usually a limit raise in hearts, 3♥ is the pre-emptive raise and 3♥ (after 2N) is the forcing raise.

[Rebound]

kgr, on Nov 27 2005, 04:33 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

You play competition. Around the average level of your country. So opps are no experts, but also no beginners.
Your partner opens 2♥ Muiderberg and RHO passes. Partner has 5 card ♥ and a 4 card minor and 5 to 10 HCP. Normally he has most of his points in his long suits, but you know that with a less nice 5/4 he peobably will still open 2♥. He can max have a 3 card ♠.
You have fillowing agreements:
- 2NT asks his minor
- 3♣ asks his points (3♦: 5-6; 3♥: 7-8; 3♠: 9-10)
- 3♥ preemptive
- 2NT followed by 3♥ is limit raise in ♥
How do you rate following bids:
- Pas
- 2NT
- 3♣
- 3NT
And what is your bidding plan after 2NT/3♣?

Given the constraints of the original post -since I don't know the convention, alternative treatments are irrelevant to me- I would like to know what 2♠* and 3♠** are for.

*natural, I presume?

**it would be handy (pun intended lol) if it asked about openers holding in the suit.

I am curious to see one thing. It has been said several times on the BBO forums that one should be in slam if a perfect minimum can be constructed for partner which would make slam a certainty opposite one's hand. I would like to see if this holds true for this hand. I'm not certain such a hand exists in this case but I will take a crack at it:

x Kxxxx Axxx xxx. I'm neither sure this hand constitutes a minimum (I think it depends on style) nor am I sure 6♣ is making, but it looks good to me. If I had my way, I would do whatever the system dictates to get partner to bid clubs then blast to 6♣. This hopefully would protect against a diamond lead.

[Free]

Standard after Muiderberg, you play following:

2♠ = natural but NF, trying to get into a better contract
2NT = relay, asking for the minor (and usually min/max as well - 3♥/♠ shows max with ♣/♦)
3♣ = P/C
3♦ = limit with fit in opener's Major
3M = preemptive
3OM = natural F1

[Fluffy]

I would bid 3NT, can't see any other option except 4♥. But that aims for a very specific hand.

[Robert]

Hello Rebound

You might want to try a slightly different method of responding.

2H-3C as pass or correct to 'find' partner's minor.

2H-2NT- asks partner for his shape and HCP range.

2H-2NT-3C clubs=lower range
-3D diamonds=lower range
-3H clubs=upper range.
-3S diamonds=upper range

Do you have any way to ask for stoppers? 2H-3S* maybe? If partner has a spade stopper, 3NT is my choice of games.

I would not pass with your example hand.

If 2H-3C is forcing, I would bid that. If partner bids 3Ds, I would bid 3S* as 4th suit forcing(trying for 3NT)

Regards,
Robert

[kgr]

Hello,

2H-3S: this would not ask for stopper, but would show a good hand with long spades.
2H-3C-3D-3S: You first ask point, partner gives a minimum and you sign off in 3S. Partner will probably raise with 3 card S, bid 3NT without S support. 3S will certainly not be interpreted as 4SF
..... You can't discuss these options with your partner at the table before you bid
What bid do you choose given the conditions?
=====
I took a shot/gamble at 3NT. My thinking was:
I can ask points with 3C, but if partner is minimal then 3NT still has a chance. I only need ♠Q or ♠Jxx and a diamond stopper. Even if partner has no ♠'s then maybe LHO will underlead his ♠A. Also if I first bid 2NT to ask his minor or bid 3♣ to ask his points then that will give more info to opps. Maybe if I blast 3NT then they start ♣....you never know.
How do you rate 3NT?

[cinvent77]

I like the spirit in 3NT. And if you want to be there you should bid it now. But I think it's too much of a gamble at IMPs and maybe even at MP. Partner should not have a good spade holding in first seat vul vs non. LHO can lead through a possible diamond stopper in dummy. Your opponents are no beginners and are likely to do the right thing on this deal.

Ideally you play clubs from the other side but I don't see how to get partner to bid clubs first. Maybe 2H - 4NT - 5♣ - pass?

[kgr]

---

This was the full deal. To my surprise partner did not have 4card ♦, but had 4card ♣.
LHO did lead a small ♠ and my hope that he did underlead his A dissapeared when RHO did play it. 3NT-5 for -500.
♥ were 4-2, so 4♥ and 5♣ would also go -1 with good defence.

[Kalvan14]

kgr, on Nov 27 2005, 05:12 PM, said:

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This was the full deal. To my surprise partner did not have 4card ♦, but had 4card ♣.
LHO did lead a small ♠ and my hope that he did underlead his A dissapeared when RHO did play it. 3NT-5 for -500.
♥ were 4-2, so 4♥ and 5♣ would also go -1 with good defence.

3NT is not a bad bid, it is a practical one, and shooting for a possible game.
I am afraid that N's 2♥ opening (dealer and vul vs not) is well below what I was expecting. It is true that 2M is 5-10 HCP, but there is also a consideration to be made on losers and vulnerability. N's hand can end up in a veritable bloodbath: just imagine that S holds 12 HCP in a balanced hand with 2 hearts

My suggestion is to pay more attention to vulnerability and losers. And also to look for a better arrangement for follow up bids. This said, Muiderberg bids can be annoying for opponents, and are very often quite effective.

[mike777]

hmm your first post said unfav vul and partner can open Muiderberg on this junk in front of unpassed partner? Great convention, hope the opp play it more often against me .

[Robert]

Hello kalvan14

Your methods over 2Hs appear very good with one possible problem area.

If 2H-2NT-3C=diamonds is fine. The 'other' bid 3D=clubs, forces your partnership to 4Ds 'if' diamonds are 'trump' with no idea what range hand opener holds.

Even if diamonds do not become trump, responder cannot show a club suit here below 4C(after 2H-2NT-3D) and responder still has no idea what range he is facing.

Playing 2H-2NT-3C=clubs min., 3D=diamonds min, 3H=clubs max. and 3S=diamonds max. might permit better auctions. You would 'know' partner minor and also have a better idea of his range.

A discussion about the values needed to open when Red vs White might also be a good option. This example hand does appear somewhat 'thin' at those colors.

Regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

Robert, on Nov 27 2005, 08:22 PM, said:

Hello kalvan14

Your methods over 2Hs appear very good with one possible problem area.

If 2H-2NT-3C=diamonds is fine.  The 'other' bid 3D=clubs, forces your partnership to 4Ds 'if' diamonds are 'trump' with no idea what range hand opener holds.

Even if diamonds do not become trump, responder cannot show a club suit here below 4C(after 2H-2NT-3D) and responder still has no idea what range he is facing.

Playing 2H-2NT-3C=clubs min., 3D=diamonds min, 3H=clubs max. and 3S=diamonds max. might permit better auctions.  You would 'know' partner minor and also have a better idea of his range.

A discussion about the values needed to open when Red vs White might also be a good option.  This example hand does appear somewhat 'thin' at those colors.

Regards,
Robert

Robert,
2NT over 2M Muiderberg is a 2-way bid: either you hold a weak minor (and you want to play that minor at 3-level) or you hold a positive hand, and are interested to know which minor the opener holds. The former case is obviously the most common. Using paradox bids (i.e., inverting the minors) you get exactly that.
If both hold clubs, 4♣ will have more pre-emptive power than 3♣.
2NT is not just a way to play a minor at 3-level, or to show a strong minor.
It caters for the following hands too:

• invitational hand with a good suit in OM (2M-2N-3m-3OM) - a direct 3OM would be forcing;
  
• forcing raise in opener's major (2M-2N-3m-3M) - a direct raise is pre-emptive.

The minimum-maximum is really a red herring, in my view. It would be much more interesting to understand where opener's honors are located.
I am not going to sacrifice this structure in order to learn if opener is max or min

Vul openings: it is a matter of losers, rather than HCP, obviously. A vul vs non-vul would require good intermediates, and good distribution, with a concentration of honors in the suits (a minimum might be something like xx KJTxx xx KT9x). I would never open vul a hand like the one posted here

[Robert]

Hello kalvan14

Thanks for the additional information. You did not mention the two way meaning for the 2NT bid earlier before I had posted my comments.

I was thinking about adding Muiderberg to my system methods. What results do you normally get when you use this convention?

We both agree that neither of us would open the xx KQxxx xxxx xx hand when vulnerable.

Please do not think that I am suggesting any changes in your methods. I was merely puzzled that such a wide range bid would not require some kind of 'range ask' to permit additional bidding.

I do really like your forcing major raise bidding. 2H-2NT-3m-3M

Regards,
Robert

[joker_gib]

mike777, on Nov 27 2005, 11:59 PM, said:

hmm your first post said unfav vul and partner can open Muiderberg on this junk in front of unpassed partner? Great convention, hope the opp play it more often against me .

Agree with Mike !

Pls tell me the name of that guy so that I can be sure never sit in front of him

That's suicidal

Alain

[Kalvan14]

Robert,
there are 2 considerations to make:

• frequency: the aggegated frequency for Muiderberg bids (2H & 2S) is around 4.2%. However, I have given up 2H in favor of assumed fit (4/+, 4+ in the majors). This means that I can expect 2.1% frequency for the 2S and 2.6% for 2H. Overall, 4.7% which is not bad at all.
  
• Muiderberg bids are principally intended as pre-emption. Most of the time you pass 2M, or try to play 3m. the forward-going hands are pretty limited in number, and in most cases you end up playing 4M (be it as pre-empt or to make)

Once you agree on these two points, it does not pay to build a very complex system to cater with these hands. The KISS principle applies

I've been playing Muiderberg for one year, and I have not had big accidents. 2♠ is a good pre-emptive bid, and your partner usually knows what raise to make (my bids always show 5 in M and 4/+ in m; it would be feasible to play it the other way around: 4/+ M and 5/+ m, which would increase the frequency. IMHO, you would loose the best pre-emption - 2M-4M - and this would not compensate the slight increase in frequency).

The normal constrictions for a pre-empt should apply: losers according to vulnerability, preference for honor concentration in the suits the opener holds, no chicanes. Obviously, once your pard passes, these constrictions are much more relaxed.

My system is as follows:
- 2N is a 2-way bid, asking opener to bid the minor he does not hold. It is either weak in a minor, strong in a minor (3N or 4m afterwards), invitational in OM (3OM), forcing raise in M (3M).
- 3♣ asks to pass or correct
- 3♦ is a limited raise in M
- 3M is pre-emptive
- 3OM is forcing, with good suit
- 3N, 4M, 4OM to play (4M & 4OM can be pre-emptive)
- 4m, 5m ask to pass or correct. Paradox rules apply. Usually, these bids are pre-emptive; they can also be intended to trap oppos (I bid 4♣ over 2♠ with x KJTx KTxx AJxx, and it resulted in a juicy 1100, when they bid 4♥ in a 4-3 fit).
- 4N is RKC in spades (never happened , but you never know) [2N and then 4N is RKC in opener's minor. ditto]

If you play both Muiderberg, you have available 2♠ over 2♥. It should be weak, with no tolerance for hearts.

Regards