[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

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We start with the question of the South hand. Is it an opening 1♠, 2♠ (or 2♦ multi), or is it a pass? Let's take each of these cases separately.

If south opens 1♠, North has a bit of a problem playing 2/1 as GF. I think many would bid an invitational jump shift of 3♣ as it is going to be impossible to get across your 7/4 shape. Those that can start with a natural 2♣ here have a relatively easy pass of 2♠.

If south opens 2♠, North will pass and hope that hearts have been preempted (and they have).

If south passes, it goes over to North. North has a shapely hand, but I for one, would be worried about having only two cards in the majors. I'm probably a lone voice here, but I would open a preemptive 3♣ on the north hand. Note that 3rd seat openings do not deny open values, they just do not think game is possible opposite a passed partner. However, most Norths will open a natural 1♣ in 3rd. Then the preemption begins as only if it goes P - P - 1♣ will East enter with 1♥. South has an easy 1♠ over this, but West puts the maximum pressure on with 4♥. What can North do now? Most will begrudgingly bid 4♠ and the damage has been done.

[Gerben42]

South is THE hand for the Fantunes 2♠, after which North will pass. Ben will no doubt point out that this is an easy opening bid (10 HCP + 4 controls + 9 long points + 5 short points = 28). I would pass it though and have North open 3♣.

[MickyB]

Not convinced by some of that - I'm raising either a weak 2♠ or a 2♠ rebid, after all someone has some hearts!

I think our auction was the rather inelegant
1♠:2♣
2♠:3♦
3NT:P

[inquiry]

Gerben is right, this was an "easy opening" for us. Hannie held the opening hand, and started with, obviously, the correct 1♠.

1♠-2♣
2♠-Pass

With the responder hand, I have two choices. I can bid 3♣, invitational with about this strength and good suit (and two or less spades). Or I can start 2♣. We play 2♣ as either, true 2/1GF, any balanced hand good 10 or more hcp (if gf balanced, then less than 3 spades), or a drury-type spade raise that is either constructive (8-10 hcp 3 or 4 spades), or limit spade raise (11-12 hcp, 3 spades).

I chose 2♣, with an odd sort of idea. If my partner showed extra values (anything but 2♥ or 2♠ rebid), then I would treat my hand as 2/1 GF hand by rebidding ♣'s. However, Hannie rebids 2S or 2H, both of which show the "I am sorry" I opened kind of hand, I would change my mind and try to play 2♠s. The bidding plan worked as designed here.

It is interesting that in the discussion of this hand, Eric K in his analysis thought that anyone who opened it one spade would be playing in four spades. Here we opened 1♠ and stopped not only short of game but in 2♠. After going non-systematic rebids on five and six (two or our three reallyl bad boards of the set), it is good to get back on track on this one.

[hrothgar]

Very reminescent of board 5...

1♥ - 2♣
2♠ - 4♠

Opener shows Spades and partner makes a natural and non-forcing 2/1 which denies three card support for partner's major. Opener rebids 2S showing a 6 card suit. At the table, I blast to 4S based on my void and my maximum hand hand. In practice this lead to a bad game.

In retrospect, using the continuations that I suggested in hand 5, I have a choice between 3C and 3D. 3D shows both suits (and will probably encourage partner to bid 4S based on supporting Diamond honors). 3C emphasizes the Club suit, while clarifying the Spade weakness.

A 3C rebid would likely lead to a 3S contract.
I know which one would have worked better...
still not sure which one I prefer

[Chamaco]

Quote

We start with the question of the South hand.  Is it an opening 1♠, 2♠ (or 2♦ multi), or is it a pass?  Let's take each of these cases separately.

A 1S opening: it has the required defense for a traditional 1-level opening (2+ quick tricks).

It is not a weak 2, the values are scattered thorough the suits and has a low ODR (empty suits to the Ace do not have high ODR).
A case might be done for a "weak 2" if pard were a passed hand.

I think these hands should open at the 1-level and certainly not pass, especially holding spades.

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My auction in Precision (with 2/1 GF)

1S............2C (1)
2D(2).......3D(3)
3S(4)........4S

1) GF with 5+ clubs or balanced
2) relay
3) natural, 5+ C, 4+ D
4) choice of game. Responde ignore our extra spade and if he has some heart stopper, then NT "feels much better than now...
An alternative bid is 5D, ending in a moysian in diamonds...

[han]

After bidding this hand we had a short discussion about my 2S rebid, should I perhaps sell this hand as a sound opening because if partner has support....

I think it is better to rebid 2S. If partner doesn't have spade support then this will slow down the auction (in particular if partner is balanced 11-12). If partner has a 3-card limit raise then we might have game but that is not clear. It is also not unlikely that 8 tricks are the limit, and then stopping in 2S would be great.

[inquiry]

Playing our metihds, I think I very much prefer the 2♠ rebid with this hand. Any hand the field might pass or open 2♠ on is probably a good candidate to show the minimal opening wtih. Althought there ahve been hands I have stretched the truth wtih and shown extra values with. This one just isn't up to that.

[Cascade]

We bid ...

1♠ 2♣
2♠ 3♦
3NT 4♠

South is a clear 1-level opening for us.

2♣ is only a one round force.

2♠ promises six spades on this auction since we open 1NT with all balanced minimum hands.

North is far too strong to pass 2♠. I am not 100% convinced by 3♦ but I guess there could be a slam if partner does not show a heart stopper and has a little extra strength.

When South did show a heart stopper North corrected to the major game which seems fair given that opener is likely to have only three hearts although four hearts would be possible in our style.

[awm]

Elianna and my auction was typical for passing the south hand:

Pass - Pass - 1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 4♥ -4♠ - All Pass

On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that 4♠ is a bad game here. If we avoid the spade lead (likely since there are many holdings where a trump lead involves leading from an awkward holding like Qx, KJx, Qxx), we can ruff two hearts in dummy and make whenever spades are 3-2 and clubs behave in a reasonable way (3-2 break or 4-1 with the short clubs with the long spades, etc). Even if spades are lead, there may be hope if clubs divide 3-2 with the king on.

Obviously not a great game, but we are vulnerable at IMPs, and I would guess it's in the 35-40% range.

[han]

Your 4S bid suggests that 1S showed 5?

[awm]

Hannie, on Nov 21 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

Your 4S bid suggests that 1S showed 5?

Yes, 1♠ guarantees five. A (rare?) win for the treatment that X shows four and 1♠ five? Honestly I've rarely found myself confronted with the "problem" hand where I want to compete with no heart stopper, no major, no ability to raise partner's minor...

Elianna and I tend to play very vanilla sayc-style treatments except on those occasions where one or both of us felt that it was really critical to change something. I could probably count on one hand the differences between our bidding and the official sayc documents. Note, though, that the official sayc document is not that close to the "standard bidding" that a lot of folks play...

[han]

I don't think that you could ever find 4S without this treatment. You would either pass or bid 4NT or 5C. If you pass then I don't think that Elianna can ever bid 4S.

Whether it is a win or a loss is not entirely clear. Without looking at the other two hands I'd say that 4H will not play well for them. 4S has chances, but does your bidding indicate a trump lead?

But clearly you should be ahead of us when you do bid 1S, as for us it only shows 4. I don't share your experience that the "problem hand" doesn't come up.

[awm]

Hannie, on Nov 21 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

I don't think that you could ever find 4S without this treatment. You would either pass or bid 4NT or 5C. If you pass then I don't think that Elianna can ever bid 4S.

Whether it is a win or a loss is not entirely clear. Without looking at the other two hands I'd say that 4H will not play well for them. 4S has chances, but does your bidding indicate a trump lead?

But clearly you should be ahead of us when you do bid 1S, as for us it only shows 4. I don't share your experience that the "problem hand" doesn't come up.

Not totally clear to me what our bidding indicates -- certainly I could have running clubs and it could be critical to cash the red suit tricks before they go away. Even if a trump lead is mildly indicated, the person on lead probably has something like Qx, and it's hard to lead from that.

As for the "problem hand" let's see what I'd need:

Less than 4 spades (else negative X)
Less than 4 clubs (else I can raise, our 1♣ is always 3+)
Less than 10 points (this is the minimum for a 2♦ or 2♥ call, which solves all problems)
Less than 3 hearts (with 3+ hearts and less than 10 points I am normally willing to pass)
Less than 6 diamonds (else a jump in diamonds is probably available)

So this pegs my distribution at precisely 3-2-5-3, with something like 6-9 points and nothing resembling a heart stopper. I don't feel like this hand comes up so often. If it does come up, maybe I pass (auction doesn't always end you know), or maybe I try a defective negative X with only three spades. Anyways, it's possible that some method like Sam and I play (where X is 4+♠ and 1♠ is "takeout with at most 3 spades") is superior in the long run. But it's not very superior, and Elianna and my policy is basically "keep it simple and sayc-ish unless there's a substantial advantage to switching."

[mike777]

1s=1nt
2s=4s

Note same bidding as on hand 5
The hole in system one must choose to live with in this style is no way to show invite hands with long minors.

2/1=100% game force. This hand does have great playing strength but I think I become more of a point counter when afraid of misfits so I started with 1nt.

1s=3c=bergen
and 1s=1nt=2s=3c =weak, expect partner to pass often. Of course rebidding 2nt over 2s was not an option with this shape. .

btw easy 1s opener, I have seen worse.

[han]

I'd say that there are more problem hands than those. I wouldn't like to bid 2D on something like Qxxxx, I wouldn't like to pass with all hands with <10 points and xxx in hearts, nor would I like to jump to 3D on any 6-card suit (I don't know how you play it, but I do know that I would not like to bid it on a wide variety of hands. I think the double that tends to deny 4 spades is a flexible call that can also be made with various hands that contain more than 10 points (including strong balanced hands without a stopper or support).

I don't claim to know that this is better than old-fashioned negative doubles, nor am I trying to make you change your methods with Elianna, I think your general philosophy is very sensible.

[Elianna]

Hannie, on Nov 21 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

I don't think that you could ever find 4S without this treatment. You would either pass or bid 4NT or 5C. If you pass then I don't think that Elianna can ever bid 4S.

Well, she can certainly think about it. (I'll admit to thinking about it. Luckily I didn't actually have to make that choice. )

[han]

With such an empty spade suit, wasted heart cards and shortness in partner's suit, I don't think that 4S is a good bid. (but I won't hold thinking about it against she, her, you, errr)

[Elianna]

Hannie, on Nov 21 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

With such an empty spade suit, wasted heart cards and shortness in partner's suit, I don't think that 4S is a good bid. (but I won't hold thinking about it against she, her, you, errr)

I don't claim that it was a good bid, just that my level of weariness was increasing exponentially as we progressed through the hands, and it had enough of an impact that I considered bidding SOMETHING when LHO bid 4♥, I just didn't know what, or even if, really.