[plaur]

Scoring: MP

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Local club MP, we are vul vs not.

pass - 1♠ - 2♥ - pass
pass - 2♠ - pass - pass
3♥

The defensive bidding system is limited (yes we are beginners :-) Any new suit as response to an overcall is a good 5-card suit and is inviting to game. Bidding opponents suit is gameforcing without another good bid. (With a passed hand undiscussed).

Given the options, how do you rate the second round pass by south? The 3♥ bid?

[mike777]

Great hand to post, very common problem, thanks.
Assuming 3h bid would be weak and 2s =invite at second turn I would chance a 3H even Vul vs Not with 4 card support and an Ace and 2 small spades. If nothing else it makes it harder for opp to double you then your pass and bid 3h auction. Great hand and many issues to discuss on this hand.

[pbleighton]

I think that your bids are fine, given what you are playing. If you played 2S as a limit plus raise in hearts, then you would have bid 3H the first time.

There is a case for "adjusting" LOTT with a flat hand at unfavorable, but, hey, it's matchpoints

Peter

[han]

If you pass the first time then the 3H bid later is clear. You cannot sell out to 2S with a such big heart fit.


I hate to pass with this hand over 2H, but partner will expect more if we raise directly. I like to agree with partner that we raise quite aggressively in such situations, and use a different bid for a good heart raise. Having discussed this I would bid always bid 3H with 4-card support and an ace.

[Winstonm]

A nice problem hand. Everything argues for a bid: 4 trumps and an Ace and no wasted values; however, partner will play you for more than this if you do bid and will too often go down in 4H when 3 was the maximum - and RHO's silence is somewhat ominous - most good players would stretch at this vulnerability to raise spades with a 3 or 4 card fit, so it sounds like partner may hold xxx or xx at the least in spades. To have a reasonable shot at game, he would have to hold:
xx, AKJxx, KQxx, Kx - and even then a 3rd round of spades, after the diamond ace is cashed, could score the doubleton trump queen on an uppercut.

So, the best course is to limit your hand with pass. The subsequent bid shows a reason to bid, and it shouldn't be just three small trumps to bid 3 over 3.

The action was fine; if game was missed partner must have had a hand that needed to do more than overcall red vs white only once and then subside.

Winston

[P_Marlowe]

Perfect, both Pass and 3H.

How else do you want to show
your support and no interest in game?

Marlowe

[mikeh]

I think that pass followed by 3♥ is both sensible and correct.

I play transfer advances of overcalls, such that a bid of 3♦ on the first round is an invitational hand in ♥, with 3♥ being a lesser hand. However, even 3♥ allows partner to bid game with a great hand for his ovecall. I say this, not to impress you with my methods, but because this S hand is so light that I would not raise to 3♥ even with my methods, where the bid shows less than a decent 10 count (or less than a good 9 count).

You can't always bid every game that makes, and, indeed, if game is good here, I suggest that your partner may well have a hand on which he could (not necessarily should) have taken different action: either beginning with a double or (more likely) competing over 2♠ with a double (takeout, extra values)

If you start raising with these hands immediately, you will never miss a game, but you will get a lot more minus scores, some of them doubled.

One of the factors that separates the 'soon-to-be-good' beginner from the never-really-improved beginner is the recognition that doing the right thing sometimes generates a poor score. Don't change methods every time you get a bad result. if you consistently get bad results in particular situations, then ask an expert for views on what is going wrong and how to fix it. I very much doubt that your approach on this board would be one of those situations.

[luke warm]

i'd have passed too, it seems necessary to limit your hand if (as happened) you later bid 3H

[plaur]

There was UI. Partner tanked over 2♠ before passing.
Is 3♥ still clearcut or is pass now a logical alternative ?

[P_Marlowe]

plaur, on Nov 18 2005, 07:19 PM, said:

There was UI. Partner tanked over 2♠ before passing.
Is 3♥ still clearcut or is pass now a logical alternative ?

Not really.

But if the TD assumes you are a beginner,
he may believe that Pass is LA.

Marlowe

[plaur]

When I bid 3♥ I hinted at the opps to call the TD which they agreed. TD noted the UI and asked us to play it out. When I tabled my hand opps clearly said that my 3♥ bid was not appropiate. They are better and more experienced than me. TD was called after we played 3♥ down one for a good result. I didnt even await TD's ruling but agreed with opps that the result should be overruled and it was. No problem with me.
I just asked here to know if my 3♥ bid was very unappropiate. I dont like these UI situations. There are unspoken accusations of 'angleshooting' (or worse) hanging in the air and its just a local club game where we want to have fun and get along with everyone. Who am I to evaluate when pass is LA? But then again I dont want to miss an obvious bid when I think is obvious ...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

it is very hard for the TD to decide, if Pass is LA for you.
You would need to have documents available, to proof your
claim about the methods you are playing.
With your given methods, the given seq. is the only seq. you
have to bid 3H, without inv. partner.

Another point: The TD has to view your action according to your
level, it may be possible for him, it may not.
If he thinks you are a beginner, he may say, you are red, you dont
go to 3 level. That's it.

The point is: accept the TD ruling, ... and maybe change your methods,
i.e. make the direct raise comp., and have fun, enjoy the atmosphere.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

I have never seen you bid or play plaur, but from your writing here it seems that you have at least some understanding of bridge. Passing 2S would not be a logical alternative for you.

It seems like you were intimidated by the opponents. Don't get nervous when they call the director. You made the right bid for the right reason. Of course if the director rules against you (no director is perfect, sadly enough) then you give in and move to the next board.

[luke warm]

i'd have bid exactly the same, and would have defended my 3h bid (even after partner tanked) by saying i would have bid 3h the first time except for the shape, and did so the 2nd time because we have a minimum 9 trumps... that's bridge logic, and i'd expect any td to accept that explanation

[Winstonm]

If ruled against here, I would ask for a committee - if the director can't play bridge hopefully the players on the committee can.

Winston

[Robert]

Hello plaur

You appear to be at least a very good beginner. Just because you 'know' that
the decision is close here, you show good judgement.

Your methods are fine for your level. You should always chose methods that work for you. Playing 'better' methods badly is often the short road to trouble.

That being said, I use different methods than your current methods. I learned my method from a 'better' playar many years ago. Direct 3H raises would be 'anything' extra added than the example hand. Bidding 3H after passing is 'clear cut' in my opinion, 'if' I am playing with a good partner.

Bidding opposite a first time partner, who was a beginner, I would pass the second time. Beginners seem to 'forget' that you first passed and 'only' later raised. If I was playing opposite a player of your ability, I would pass and later bid 3H.

I hope that I am not confusing you here. I rate your game(from your questions and comments, as being beginner++ or even at the intermediate level) so I would suggest that you bid a delayed 3Hs here playing 'with' a partner that is equal to your current level of play.

TDs are not perfect. You may appeal their decision unless it is a small club game 'without' a committee available. In large club games or tournaments, you should have appealed this decision. The first pass was 'very close' to a 3H call.
The delayed 3H bid is simply good bridge in my opinion.

A committee would very likely rule in your favor here(committees are also not perfect)

Regards,
Robert

[han]

I disagree with Robert when he says that he would pass the second time when playing with an absolute beginner. While it may be true that partner forgets the first pass, I refuse to make a call that is clearly wrong even when playing with a beginner. If we get into an accident because of my belated 3H bid, then that will be a good opportunity to explain the box-principle again.

[Robert]

Hello hannie

I said that 'playing with a beginner', I would pass.

S.J. Simon(I think) said, "Do not make 50 cent bids with a penny partner." Using 6C as a Grand Slam Force with most beginners is just a recipe for disaster. With a good partner, it is just normal bridge.

If I was playing with a beginner(that I was 'helping' to learn bridge) 'than' I would make a delayed 3H bid and explain my reasons after partner bid 4Hs and went down.

I have played bridge for almost 40 years and I have the battle scars from making the 'correct bid' with many beginners and watching them overbid at their next turn to bid. Beginners in my experience do 'not' remember that you first passed and later 'balanced.'

I also do 'not' teach at the table 'unless I am asked.' If partner asks for lessons, I will be happy to offer them any help needed.

Regards,
Robert