[Syl20]

Hi,
I thought of the possibility to use 1NT as FG relay after a limited 1♦ opening.
This is because the 1♥ response from the Viking club (naturel, 4+♥, 6+H or GF any hand) is restricted in France.

My a level opening are:
1♣ 16+ any
1♦ (11)12-15H, 4♦ if 4441, 5+♦ else, not balanced
1NT (12)13-15H, balanced
2♣ (11)12-15H, 5+♣ and 4♥/♠ or 6+♣

Of course, 1NT would only be GF relay after opening 1♦ in 1st or 2nd seat.
The scheme would be:

2♣ 5+♦ but not 5/4 in the minors
2♦ exactly 4/5 or 5/4 in the minors, mini
2♥/2♠ 1-4-4-4 / 4-1-4-4, mini
2NT/3NT 4-4-4-1 exactly, mini/maxi
3♣ 5♣+4♦, maxi
3♦ 5♦+4♣, maxi
3♥/♠ 1-4-4-4 / 4-1-4-4, maxi

The advantage is that after 1♦-1NT-2♣, we can use the same scheme as after the 2♣ opening since the shapes are exactly the same.

After the very accurate 4441 answers, we could use next relay as BW or CRASH.

After 2♦, 2♥ is a relay asking for the 5 card minor (2♠=5♣ and 2NT=5♦) then next relay asks for the residues.

After 3♣/♦, next relay asks for residues.

I think i would like to reserve 1♦-2♣ as invitationnal with any hands with responses:
2♦ = mini
other = natural, maxi, GF

and 1♦-2♦ as 5-10H, with 3 or 4♦

and 1♦-2NT as 5-9H, 6+♣ and no 3+♦

and 1♦-3♣ as 6+♣, 10-11H

The only drawback i see to this scheme is that sometimes, responder will have to bid 1♥/♠ in 3 cards when he won't have 4 cards in ♥ or ♠ and not 3 cards in ♦, thus specifically 3-3-2-5, 5-10H.

I am looking forward for your comments and critics,

[Gerben42]

I'm actually playing this with someone. The 3-card 1M-response is not much of a problem, at all.

Our responses to 1♦ are:

1M: can be 3
2♣: Natural, 6+card
2♦: Simple raise
3♣: Invitational raise
3♦: Preemptive raise

[Syl20]

Gerben42, on Nov 14 2005, 11:51 AM, said:

I'm actually playing this with someone. The 3-card 1M-response is not much of a problem, at all.

Our responses to 1♦ are:

1M: can be 3
2♣: Natural, 6+card
2♦: Simple raise
3♣: Invitational raise
3♦: Preemptive raise

Dear D. Gerben,

What do you use 2NT for ? (I suppose Invitationnal without 4 card M and without ♦ support, which means balanced or with long ♣s ???)

The more i think of it, the more 1M in 3+ cards interests me since it can sort of psych the opponents if partner is singleton in that major.

In addition, if opener supports the major then he is either 4441 or 54xx and playing 2M in Moysian is not that bad. Moreover, it puts pressure on the opponents to balance when they are not sure we have a fit.

Concerning your invitationnal bids without M, I don't get the logic behind it: you suggest 2♣ as being weak with clubs and 2NT or 3♣ for invitationnal hands rather than using the 3 level as preempt with long weak clubs and 2♣ for invitationnal which leaves more room to investigate the best game if opener is maximum.
What are your reasons for that?

[Gerben42]

Quote

What do you use 2NT for ? (I suppose Invitationnal without 4 card M and without ♦ support, which means balanced or with long ♣s ???)

Yes, inv. and sort of balanced.

2♣ is constructive but need not be invitational, about 8 - 12 HCP.
3♣ is a Bergen type raise of ♦, sorry if that was not clear.

[hrothgar]

Syl20, on Nov 14 2005, 06:45 PM, said:

The scheme would be:

2♣ 5+♦ but not 5/4 in the minors
2♦ exactly 4/5 or 5/4 in the minors, mini
2♥/2♠ 1-4-4-4 / 4-1-4-4, mini
2NT/3NT 4-4-4-1 exactly, mini/maxi
3♣ 5♣+4♦, maxi
3♦ 5♦+4♣, maxi
3♥/♠ 1-4-4-4 / 4-1-4-4, maxi

I don't see rhyme nor reason to the relay structure that you describe. I think that you will quickly discover that little issues like the ability to quickly place a three card fragment in a 5=4=3=1 hand is rather important. I'm also skeptical about the idea in general. Your 1♦ opening doesn't include very many hand types and I wonder about about the frequency of an absolutely game foricng relay response. You also haven't explained why you want to use a relay structure. Few people play relay for its own sake... rather relay is an enabling tool for other elements of the system. How does the decision to adopt a GF relay improve the rest of your response structure?)

With this said and done, I suggest the following structure after 1♦ - 1♥

1♠ = Two suited with both minors
1N = Three suited
2C = Single suited with Diamonds. High shortage or 2-2-6-3 / 2-3-6-2 shape
2♦ = Middle shortage
2♥ = 3-2-6-2 / 7-2-2-2 shape
2♠ = 3-3-6-1 shape
2N = 2-3-7-1 / 3-2-7-1 shape
3♣ = 3-3-7-0 shape

After 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1N

2♣ = 4 Diamonds and 5+ Clubs
2♦ = 5+ Diamonds and 5+ Clubs
2♥ = 5 Diamonds and 4 Clubs, 0-1 Spades
2♠ = Equal shortage (2-2-5-4 / 1-1-7-4 shape)
2N = 3-1-5-4 shape
3♣ = 2-1-6-4 shape
3♦ = 3-0-6-4 shape
3♥ = 2-0-7-4 shape

After 1♦ - 1♥ - 1N - 2♣

2♦ = any 4441 hand
2♥ = 5440 shape with 4 Diamonds and 5 Clubs
2♠ = 0-4-5-4 shape
2N = 4-0-5-4 shape

If you want, you could build a range ask into the initial relay (after 1♦ - 1♥, 1♠ shows any minimum and shape resolution with bids from 1NT+. 1N could then be used as a second relay and the relay break kicks off natural bidding) Alternatively, you can build a range ask into the auction termination mechanism.

[Syl20]

hrothgar, on Nov 15 2005, 06:58 AM, said:

You also haven't explained why you want to use a relay structure.

If you want, you could build a range ask into the initial relay (after 1♦ - 1♥, 1♠ shows any minimum and shape resolution with bids from 1NT+.  1N could then be used as a second relay and the relay break kicks off natural bidding)  Alternatively, you can build a range ask into the auction termination mechanism.

Thanks hrothgar,
I am not yet playing this system but hope as soon as my partner and I will be ready.
The aim of this low level GF auction is to be able to find the best game (3NT or 5m ?) or even 6m when the hands fit well. Besides, being able to hide one of partner's hand suits me. In addition, not using this GF auction will mean the responder is limited. This might be useful information for a maximum opener.
The 1♦-1M with 3+ cards, while being compulsory, also looks very aggressive and coherent from the point of view that opener is not balanced.
In fact, i don't see any disadvantage of this system. Although i know there must be some, i would be happy if someone could point them out.
My idea came from 1NT GF after 1M opening in Viking club. I wanted to be able to create a GF relay auction after any opening bid (up to 2♣): trying to have this scientific approach in bridge is part of my pleasure (as well as many people on peticuliar this forum ).

Your scheme is also interesting. I assume 1♥ there is GF so of course it is more economic but you didn't say what are your other responses apart from 1♥ (for instance what is responder's bid with 7Hcp and 4♥?).

Your point concerning the range ask is very valuable since it would save some space. For instance, keeping my scheme with 1NT as GF trigger, 2♥ after 1♦-1NT could show 1-4-4-4 any strength,
2♠ asks and:
-2NT = mini, then 3♣ ace ask or CRASH...
-3♣+ = maxi and are the answer to ace ask.

[luke warm]

on gerben's site is a symetric relay big club system that (i believe) uses 1nt over 1d/h/s as a gf relay... the followups are close to what richard was saying

[Cascade]

I play 1NT as GF relay after 1♦ in a fairly plain symmetric relay system.

Our 1♦ shows 10-15 2 or 3 suited no five-card major and the longest suit is a minor. This is different than yours but I am sure it can be adapted since you have no ♣+Major two suiters but do have single-suited diamond hands.

Here are our relays:

1♣ 1NT

2♣ = ♥s
2♦ = both minors
2♥ = ♣+♠
2♠ = Black 3-suiter
2NT and higher are ♦+♠ standard symmetric relays

1♣ 1NT
2♣ 2♦

2♥ = ♣+♥
2♠ = red three-suiter
2NT and higher are ♦+♥

1♣ 1NT
2♦ 2♥

2♠ = ♣>♦
2NT = 5/5 minors
3♣ and higher symmetric relays up one step from our normal relay

===

Here is a structure that could work for you:

1♦ 1NT

2♣ both minors
2♦ ♦+♠ or three-suited
2♥ ♦+♥
2♠ and higher ♦ single-suited

[DelfinoD]

Quote

The aim of this low level GF auction is to be able to find the best game (3NT or 5m ?)

IMHO relays are the worst method to check that. When you plan to play 5m instead of 3nt you have to well know the honor distribution. This can be only achived on a low level with natural bidding.

[luke warm]

DelfinoD, on Nov 16 2005, 07:22 PM, said:

Quote

The aim of this low level GF auction is to be able to find the best game (3NT or 5m ?)

IMHO relays are the worst method to check that. When you plan to play 5m instead of 3nt you have to well know the honor distribution. This can be only achived on a low level with natural bidding.

is that true? what about shape? rosenkratz seemed to think shape was the thing

[Robert]

Hello everyone

Have you seen POWER? They use a relay system that uses both 2C*=10-12 and 2D* to start relays over 1D or 1M openings with the same relay reply.

1z-2C*(10-12HCP)-2D shows 11-13HCP and 2H+ shows 14+ relay reply.
1z-2D* shows 13+-2H+ show the same relay patterns as the 2C bid started.

Power relays bids normally bid to 2NT and 3NT with balanced hand patterns.

Several of your relays bid 2NT or 3NT with unbalanced patterns. If you are going to play NT, having a balanced hand play the contract is often better than having an unbalanced hand take the lead.

If you are not using 1D-3Ds, you might want to use it to show 4 card diamond support and @ 5-9HCP. Nine card fits should often get to 3m before the other pair gets into the auction.

3343 hands might be the exception to the jump on 4 card support. Your ruffing power is somewhat limited.

If you adopt POWER relays, you can use 1D-1NT as a puppet to 2Cs. Reponder with xxx xxx x KJxxxx passes and with xxx xx Kxx Kxxxx corrects to 2D to show a 3 card raise. You could also play 1D-1NT-2C-3D shows that 3343 10HCP hand.

Your 1D-3C bid works fine if partner has tolerence, however, an unbalanced 1D opening might often have club shortness. Getting to 3 clubs with Q10xxxx opposite x or void gives some people ulcers.

Since you have not decided on higher bids meanings, you might also want to look at the POWER system. They include 'size asking' RKC, a 4D* puppet to 4H to sign off in any suit game and a number of good slam bidding methods.

Their relay method also appears to resolve the exact pattern lower than some of your bidding does. Many relay bidders would gladly kill to gain a single step under 3NT.

Bidding 1D-1M with 3325 with 5-10HCP is a bit much. You are not allowed to past in a presumed 5-2 fit? I can see taking a bid with 10HCP, but 5-9HCP?

I play support doubles so bidding a 3 card major with 3325 5-10HCP has some risks. Even if you do not play support doubles. Partner raising on either 3-4 card major support might not lead to a good contract holding a 3325 pattern.

I do not own stock in any POWER type company.

Regards,
Robert

[Syl20]

DelfinoD, on Nov 16 2005, 07:22 PM, said:

Quote

The aim of this low level GF auction is to be able to find the best game (3NT or 5m ?)

IMHO relays are the worst method to check that. When you plan to play 5m instead of 3nt you have to well know the honor distribution. This can be only achived on a low level with natural bidding.

Dear DelfinoD,

I partly agree with you.
The advantage of relays is to know the exact shape or at least the kind of hand early in the auction.
Then the relayer is free to switch to natural bidding or keep on using relays depending on the information he's looking for.

[Syl20]

Robert, on Nov 16 2005, 10:30 PM, said:

Hello everyone

Have you seen POWER?  They use a relay system that uses both 2C*=10-12 and 2D* to start relays over 1D or 1M openings with the same relay reply.

1z-2C*(10-12HCP)-2D shows 11-13HCP and 2H+ shows 14+  relay reply.
1z-2D* shows 13+-2H+ show the same relay patterns as the 2C bid started.

Power relays bids normally bid to 2NT and 3NT with balanced hand patterns.

Several of your relays bid 2NT or 3NT with unbalanced patterns.  If you are going to play NT, having a balanced hand play the contract is often better than having an unbalanced hand take the lead.

If you are not using 1D-3Ds, you might want to use it to show 4 card diamond support and @ 5-9HCP.  Nine card fits should often get to 3m before the other pair gets into the auction. 

3343 hands might be the exception to the jump on 4 card support.  Your ruffing power is somewhat limited.

If you adopt POWER relays, you can use 1D-1NT as a puppet to 2Cs.  Reponder with xxx  xxx  x  KJxxxx passes and with xxx xx  Kxx  Kxxxx corrects to 2D to show a 3 card raise.  You could also play 1D-1NT-2C-3D shows that 3343 10HCP hand.

Your 1D-3C bid works fine if partner has tolerence, however, an unbalanced 1D opening might often have club shortness.  Getting to 3 clubs with Q10xxxx opposite x or void gives some people ulcers.

Since you have not decided on higher bids meanings, you might also want to look at the POWER system.  They include 'size asking' RKC, a 4D* puppet to 4H to sign off in any suit game and a number of good slam bidding methods.

Their relay method also appears to resolve the exact pattern lower than some of your bidding does.  Many relay bidders would gladly kill to gain a single step under 3NT.

Bidding 1D-1M with 3325 with 5-10HCP is a bit much.  You are not allowed to past in a presumed 5-2 fit?  I can see taking a bid with 10HCP, but 5-9HCP? 

I play support doubles so bidding a 3 card major with 3325 5-10HCP has some risks.  Even if you do not play support doubles.  Partner raising on either 3-4 card major support might not lead to a good contract holding a 3325 pattern.

I do not own stock in any POWER type company. 

Regards,
Robert

Dear Robert,

Interesting points.

Viking club has the same style as Power except the GF bid is 1NT and the invitationnal one is 2♣, maybe here the point you mention where people would be ready to kill to save one step below 3NT

Your argument concerning the 2/3NT bid with unbalanced is not receivable since responder already bid 1NT...

I agree with 1♦-3♦ as preempt since no game is in view due to the limited opening range except if opener is very shapely with 15Hcp which, at extreme, can correspond to a 5 losers hand. Therefore, this frees up the 2♦ bid.

I wrote that 1♦-3♣ shows 6 good ♣ and invitationnal strength therefore I don't think it would be too bad to meet a minimium with singleton ♣ opener and play 3♣ there.
I reserved the 2NT bid to show 6♣ and 5-9(10)Hcp without 3♦. I agree that this bid is tricky and might lead opener with a difficult bid: either he transfers to 3♣ to play even with a singleton, he can pass or bid 3♦ with 6. This might get a bad result but anyway, we won't be playing 3♣ when the field will play in a safe 1NT with these holdings. At least we'll get there quickly and let the opponents decide wether to compete or not. To conclude, the 2♦ bid could then show this kind of hands (6♣ 5-9Hcp). The adavantage is that the misfit opener can pass 2♦ with 6 good or bid a non forcing 2♥/♠ to show a 5+♦/4♥/♠ hands implying misfit and trying to get the best spot.
This now frees up the 2NT bid which could then be used to show the 10-11H balanced hands (which I would bid through 2♣).

Concerning the shape resolution, I've been told in other threads that Viking club is not the most efficient system at all. Anyway, I really enjoy the logic behind it.
For instance, I reckon that Moscito is more efficient for shape resolution but I don't feel confortable with the classifying of hand types depending on the residues, equal length, etc... I really dislike the fact that 1♥ over 1♣ shows 4+♠ and can be canapé. Without interference, it's Ok, but when opponents bounce...

I play support double but only with a maximum hand, therefore if responder only has 3 cards major, he can bid 1/2NT.

[DelfinoD]

Quote

The advantage of relays is to know the exact shape or at least the kind of hand early in the auction.
Then the relayer is free to switch to natural bidding or keep on using relays depending on the information he's looking for.

Well it depends on the system, but in most cases when you know the exact shape it's already too late to switch to natural bidding (the level is to high).

But anyway that's the main reason why making a good relay system a is very difficult taks. It's not olny a problem of fitting all the informations in the system. Very important thing is to give players the freedom of choosing wheter they want to bid it by relays or natural. For example responces showing balanced hands must be on low level, so there's plenty of space for natural bidding. The responce showing singletons etc. can be much higher, because natural bidding won't be very often after these.

And it's not only relays that give you the kind of hand early in the auction. You can play systems which give it to you without relay bidding, even in natural style.

[Syl20]

DelfinoD, on Nov 17 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

Well it depends on the system, but in most cases when you know the exact shape it's already too late to switch to natural bidding (the level is to high).

But anyway that's the main reason why making a good relay system a is very difficult taks. It's not olny a problem of fitting all the informations in the system. Very important thing is to give players the freedom of choosing wheter they want to bid it by relays or natural. For example responces showing balanced hands must be on low level, so there's plenty of space for natural bidding. The responce showing singletons etc. can be much higher, because natural bidding won't be very often after these.

And it's not only relays that give you the kind of hand early in the auction. You can play systems which give it to you without relay bidding, even in natural style.

Dear DelfinoD,

I do agree with you.
What I meant is that with relay bidding, after two rounds of bidding, you know the kind of hands almost the same way natural systems do (I mean that you still don't know the residues but you know partner is short in the other suits ).
Therefore it can be time for relayer to switch to natural bidding at the 3 level, still the same as in natural systems ... except that relayer can keep on relaying when he's strong and slam inviting and then there is no more comparison with the accuracy of natural systems.
Playing duplicate, I would still recommend to keep on relaying since there is (almost) no difference between 3NT and 5m but you now have a lot of space to figure out if 6m is laydown.