[Fluffy]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 11:52 AM, said:

cherdano, on Nov 15 2005, 12:46 PM, said:

I don't get this question. You stipulate weird agreements (can I really still have a GF 5-5 hand?? Did everything besides 2♦ deny a game forcing hand?

I don't see anything weird here. Most expert pairs play 2-way check back Stayman. Consequently, only 2♦ is GF after a 1NT rebid (2♣ would be the beginning of an invitational sequence). You may not play it, but it's quite normal in expert circles, and that's where I have posted this.

It's not my intention to impose anything on you or anyone else for that matter. If you have a better way to explore after the 1NT rebid, go ahead and use it.

Roland

I also play XYZ but keep 3 level rebids as forcing as well. How do you use your 3 level bids Roland?

[Fluffy]

4♦, partner cannot bid 4♠ so he either bids 4♥ and we can bid 4♠, or he bids 5♣. OR just 5♦

[Walddk]

Fluffy, on Nov 15 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

I also play XYZ but keep 3 level rebids as forcing as well. How do you use your 3 level bids Roland?

3♣ as a sign off, and as I said earlier 3♥ as mildly invitational with 6-4 after
1mi - 1♠ ; 1NT. In all other situations I go through 2♣ with invitational hands, 2♦ with GF ditto.

Since opener is limited, I think it's more important to explore his hand regarding pattern and strength when I am strong enough to force to (at least) game. My hand is unlimited, so it seems prudent that I am the captain.

Roland

[mikeh]

As posted, I would have to raise 3♦ to 4♦, to set trump. In my partnerships, opener will cue 4♥ with the King before he would cue 5♣: to allow me to confirm the ♠ cue. So over 4♥, I expect to bid 4♠ and then here 5♣, over which I bid 5♥, as a further cue, and a grand slam try. If I hear 6♣ now, I will bid 7♦. If I hear 6♠, I will bid 6N.

If he bids 4N, that would deny both the ♥K and the ♣A: which seems unlikely: Qx QJx KQJxx Kxx (As below, I would not bid 3♦ with that). It he bids 4N, I will bid 5♦, even tho 4N is best opp that example.. 5♦ cannot be at risk.

If he bids 5♣, he will again be missing the ♥K. I am not sure how to find out if he has the ♠Q: the card I need for grand to feel comfortable. It would be nice to dream that he will cue the Q over a 5♥ cue, but that is probably delusional. So I will try 5♥ and probably settle for 6♦.

BTW, for what it is worth, I play 2 way checkback (also known over here as two way new minor) and use the sequence 1N 2♦ 3♦ 3♥ as gf 5-5, with either no slam interest or not-great suits and thus some strength in my short suits. This allows a jump to 3♥ over 1N as 'picture': 5-5 or better, definite slam interest, with concentrated values in my suits. Opener upgrades any honours in my suits and side Aces and downgrades other values in the side suits.

Further BTW, Roland posted an aceless hand as a possibility for opener. I would not view Qx KQx KQJxx J10x as a 3♦ bid: despite the hcp and the nice ♦ suit, I would not go out of my way to describe this as a maximum. I would merely bid 2N. In these gf auctions, with no direction yet established, my approach is to make the most economical bid unless I truly have a reason for doing otherwise. It doesn't matter whether I bid 3♦ or 2N if partner is only looking for the right game, but it may really matter if partner is in the slam range and I give the impression that I have a good hand for such ambitions. With 3 Queens and 2 Jacks, this is not a good hand. My 3♦ bid would be something like xx Kxx KQJxx AJx.... I would not have upgraded this to 15-17 because of the poor ♠ holding.

[Walddk]

mikeh, on Nov 15 2005, 05:50 PM, said:

Further BTW, Roland posted an aceless hand as a possibility for opener. I would not view Qx KQx KQJxx J10x as a 3♦ bid: despite the hcp and the nice ♦ suit, I would not go out of my way to describe this as a maximum. I would merely bid 2N. In these gf auctions, with no direction yet established, my approach is to make the most economical bid unless I truly have a reason for doing otherwise. It doesn't matter whether I bid 3♦ or 2N if partner is only looking for the right game, but it may really matter if partner is in the slam range and I give the impression that I have a good hand for such ambitions. With 3 Queens and 2 Jacks, this is not a good hand. My 3♦ bid would be something like xx Kxx KQJxx AJx.... I would not have upgraded this to 15-17 because of the poor ♠ holding.

Good points Mike, and you are very close to what he actually had:

♠ xx
♥ Kxx
♦ KQxxx
♣ AJ10

A reasonable grand slam when played by opener (no annoying club through). Spades 3-3 or 4-2 with doubleton queen, or the club finesse. However, I don't think it's easy to bid when opener doesn't have the ♠Q.

Roland

[Winstonm]

This is somewhat of a system fix - seems the only force that makes sense is 4D, which eats a lot of room - now, is this "serious" and forces a cue or what?

With this much room eaten, I'd have to use 4D not as ace-asking but as serious, which allows partner to cue bid a heart control. Assuming pard cue bids the heart king, I'd have to follow with 4S and then we would have to agree that 4N by partner following 4S was Blue Team - movement but non-specific, after which 5D by me would isolate the club problem... a whole lots of ifs and buts....

IMO, the problem begins with 2-way checkback, which I don't think is needed. If 2C is the only checkback, showing invitational or better values, then the bidding could proceed: 1D-1S-1N-2C-2D-3D* game force in diamonds, leaving a lot more room for investigation.

Winston

[han]

Given the system constraints I bid 4D, it doesn't look like I have anything to chose from. Normally I would bid 3H over 3D, and later 4D over 3NT or 3S.

Here some of Roland's phrases that I'd like to comment on:

Most expert pairs play 2-way check back Stayman. Consequently, only 2♦ is GF after a 1NT rebid (2♣ would be the beginning of an invitational sequence). You may not play it, but it's quite normal in expert circles, and that's where I have posted this.

The word "consequently" makes no sense in this context. There are many ways to play 2-way checkback, and your way is just one of the possibilities that experts use. You have been posting here for a long time, so presumably you would know that cherdano knows very well what 2-way check back is and your second sentence strikes me as weird.

**) It is possible to give opener a maximum with no ♣A or K.

Perhaps, but given that partner is an expert it is very unlikely.

Some play that 4♦ sets trumps and asks for key cards at the same time (kickback)

I thought that kickback uses 4H as keycards for diamonds and that this is called minorwood. But more importantly: it seems seriously flawed to use 4D as RKC if it is the only way to set diamonds as trump.

[kenrexford]

1D-P-1S-P-1NT-P-2NT used as a relay to 3C allows 3H after the relay to show 5-5, GF. This protects this auction. Now, 2D-P-3D-P-3H is an artificial acceptance of diamonds (meaningless cue), sort-of a "Serious 3H." If 1D-P-1H..., then 3S would be a "Serious 3S". If 1C start, same thing.

After this convenient cuebid (3H here), partner will be able to show Qx of spades if he has it. Or, 3NT with poor trumps, or 4C with good trumps and a club control, etc.

The key is to note this problem and fix it. Good problem presented!!!

[jdeegan]

Hands like this is the reason Mike Lawrence still plays strong jump shifts in his version of 2/1. Life is easy after a 1♦ - pass - 2♠ beginning. Requirements are a good suit, good support for partner's suit, and a hand that flops six opposite the right minimum.

[Robert]

hello everyone

If you are going to play 2D* as GF, perhaps opener should not get in the way of responder. Opener bids 2H* 'waiting' without 3 card spade support.

Now responder can bid out his shape or support diamonds.
1D-1S-1NT-2D-2H-3D sets diamonds at a low level and allows an exchange of cue bids.

It seems that your suit agreement rules have some problem areas. Maybe a review and a possible 'repair our rules' session is needed.

If you discard that 2D* GF bid, you can play your opening NT bids here with a few adjustments. 2C* forces 2D to sign off or invite with your next bid.
Jacoby transfers of 2D or 2H. If you play 4 suit transfers continue to use them.

I play 1NT-3H*starts a CONFIT auction, if you want to check on controls and check out openers shape for a slam try.

If you play four suit transfers, 1D-1S-1NT-whatever method place here*-can transfer to 3D.

Various methods can be used with the majors. You can transfer
1D-1S-1NT-2D*(H transfer)-2H-2S shows 5S and 4H. With 5-5 majors, transfer to hearts and rebid them with 5-5 majors.

If partner has a super accept of hearts, he uses that method over the 2D transfer bid.

You can make mild slams trys, use Texas transfers and still use all of your other fun tools.

You do know what is forcing in your 1NT and followup bidding. Use the same rules and there should be very few problems.

Regards,
Robert

[rtewari]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 03:36 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ AKJ43 ♥ A2 ♦ A1094 ♣ Q3

15-17 NT. You are South, and the bidding goes:

1♦ - 1♠
1N - 2♦*)
3♦+)

*) Artificial GF relay.
+) 2-3-5-3 and maximum.

You want to set diamonds and find out if there is a club control or not **). 3♥ is not a cue bid for diamonds; it sets hearts (responder is 6-5 or 5-5 in the majors). What is your next bid, and what does it mean?

**) It is possible to give opener a maximum with no ♣A or K.

Roland

I guess it is sometimes better to keep the science on a side and take the practical approach. On this hand anything from just a game to grand is possible.

I will simply ask for key cards (whatever bid is available for that)
a) If partner shows one key card - I bid small slam. Possible that there are 2 club losers but they have to find the lead (they may as well lead hearts)
If partner shows 2 keys cards without queen - I bid small slam a little more confidently.
c) If partner shows 2 key cards with queen, I ask for extra king (either heart/club king should make the grand odds on).

[Trpltrbl]

I am not really seeing a problem.
When playing this way, and I have for many years, bid 4♦.
Your pd knows now that you have 5+ ♠ and 4+♦ and slamgoing hand.
You will either hear a cuebid or 4NT.

GBB