[Winstonm]

I have sympathy for the 1S bid but don't see the need of it when I have a natural bid available: 2C.

Winston

[FrancesHinden]

inquiry, on Nov 14 2005, 08:39 AM, said:

...So, I would go with the pedestrian 1♠...

1♠ is many things, but pedestrian it ain't. Inventing a 3-card suit in an auction where partner can easily have four of them, is above the level of the suit we're hoping to raise later, and where partner does have four of them won't have five hearts, is not pedestrian.

[adhoc3]

Quote

In many parts of USA you are not allowed to double your partner's bids, no matter how much you want to sometimes.

Quote

It is not a legal bid over your partner's 1H 

lol, I like both comments, thank you! ---- thought was opps' 1H

[awm]

Interesting that many of the same people who like to open ten-counts with six-card clubs at the one-level are rebidding 2♣. Isn't game pretty good opposite any of these hands:

xx
AJTxx
xxx
xxx

xx
Axxxx
Axx
xxx

xxxx
JTxxx
xx
Ax

I wouldn't expect partner to do anything but pass 2♣ with any of those hands. It seems very easy to miss a game after the 2♣ call, which (while it may have a wide range) could certainly be an ace weaker.

On the other hand, 3♣ is unlikely to miss a game, and you will probably find your heart fit as long as partner isn't passing 3♣. Notice that despite the weak spots, you have a fair chance to make 3♣ opposite:

Qxx
Jxxx
xxxx
Jx

This is not a hand I'd expect partner to respond on. Yes, surely partner might have a club singleton or void, but it seems very pessimistic to be willing to miss so many good games just on the off-chance partner has some minimal hand with very short clubs.

[mikeh]

2♣

I don't mind 3♣ on nice 15's but one has to have a good suit: 3♣ often leads to 3N. Partner should be comfortable bidding 3N with a solitary ♦ stopper if looking at Qx♣, for example.

With poor suit quality, go for the conservative bid.

As for 2♥: there is no need to rush into the major yet. 2♣ does not rule out playing in ♥, but 2♥ eliminates playing in ♣.

If we have a future on this hand, it will be because partner will make a move. If he bids 2N or 3♣, I have an easy 3♥: showing 6♣, 3♥, and the values to accept an invite. If he makes a stronger move, I will be delighted to co-operate in any plans he may have, rather than feeling worried that i have overstated and/or misdescribed my hand earlier.

The only downside is playing a 6-1 (or 6-0) 2♣ when he has a weak hand with 5+♥.

As for 1♠: count me out. It is never a good idea to make a natural bid in an auction where a raise is the last thing you want to hear. You are never going to recover from 1♠ if he fits ♠, and never going to convince partner that you are 3=3=1=6: if you ever do bid out your shape, he will play you for 4=3=1=5. Why lie to partner in a constructive auction?? I have never understood the temptation to make such bids: bridge is a partnership game.

Finally, I am not one of those who opens 1♣ with a 10 count and a 6 card suit Ok, A109x xx x AQ109xx: yes I might open 1♣, but if you think this is a 10 count, I suggest you change valuation methods.

[mike777]

awm, on Nov 14 2005, 01:03 PM, said:

Interesting that many of the same people who like to open ten-counts with six-card clubs at the one-level are rebidding 2♣. Isn't game pretty good opposite any of these hands:

xx
AJTxx
xxx
xxx

xx
Axxxx
Axx
xxx

xxxx
JTxxx
xx
Ax

I wouldn't expect partner to do anything but pass 2♣ with any of those hands. It seems very easy to miss a game after the 2♣ call, which (while it may have a wide range) could certainly be an ace weaker.

On the other hand, 3♣ is unlikely to miss a game, and you will probably find your heart fit as long as partner isn't passing 3♣. Notice that despite the weak spots, you have a fair chance to make 3♣ opposite:

Qxx
Jxxx
xxxx
Jx

This is not a hand I'd expect partner to respond on. Yes, surely partner might have a club singleton or void, but it seems very pessimistic to be willing to miss so many good games just on the off-chance partner has some minimal hand with very short clubs.

I think your example 2 hand xx=Axxxx=Axx=xxx is worth a weak raise to 3clubs, 2s would show a stronger invite? I think I would pass with your other 2 examples. I guess with only 20 hcp I might miss game assuming the opp never bid with their 20 hcp and 8 spades on hand one and 20 hcp hands on hand 3?

[Al_U_Card]

2C has lots of ways to win and there is no rush to get to a final contract if pard is broke. Say he bids 2H (to play), would you now raise on the 5-3 fit or just pass.....

[inquiry]

Jlall, on Nov 14 2005, 03:29 PM, said:

mikeh, on Nov 14 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

As for 1♠: count me out. It is never a good idea to make a natural bid in an auction where a raise is the last thing you want to hear.

Is a raise the last thing we want to hear? Oh no, partner has length in hearts and spades! My hand is so bad now! and *gasp* we might have to play a moysian with this hand! Oh wait, this is a good hand for a moysian! And a raise in spades improves my hand! Drats, maybe it's not the last thing I want to hear. Or maybe it is because EVERY OTHER BID is good for me.

What he said. 1♠ is really a pretty good bid imvho

[Double !]

I am another who selected 1 spade.
I not only wish to show where my cards are, but this uses minimum room and gives P more options (including checkback options). I can also show belated support for hearts without getting too high. LOL In the past I would have rebid the clubs. Not sure if selecting a 1 spade rebid means that I am progressing or regressing.

DHL

[junyi_zhu]

Echognome, on Nov 14 2005, 09:06 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣ - 1♥
?

---

No good rebid. What's the best lie?

This is really an easy 2C to me. 2C can be as good as bad 16, if partner holds two aces and C fit, he should keep the bidding alive.

[Al_U_Card]

Or when he rebids 2D you can now jump to 3H and have room for a little slam try when he bids 4C say......

[Fluffy]

About 1♠... its thekind of bid I often do, but 2♣ is so obvious this time.....

[Al_U_Card]

You should have a full envelope before you try to stretch it....lol

[han]

2H for me, more encouraging than 2C.

[han]

And I like 1S.

[mikeh]

Jlall, on Nov 14 2005, 03:29 PM, said:

Is a raise the last thing we want to hear? Oh no, partner has length in hearts and spades! My hand is so bad now! and *gasp* we might have to play a moysian with this hand! Oh wait, this is a good hand for a moysian! And a raise in spades improves my hand! Drats, maybe it's not the last thing I want to hear. Or maybe it is because EVERY OTHER BID is good for me.

Quote

You are never going to recover from 1♠ if he fits ♠

What is this need for recovery? It is quite likely a moysian will play better than 3N even if partner has a diamond stopper. where would our tricks come from? Let's see...not clubs. Believe it or not, some hands are better in a 7 card fit than 3N! Even if he drives to slam in spades, that is not a bad thing. If he has 5 hearts, we can back into hearts on some auctions.

It is also a game where using your brain is allowed.

Let me see if I understand this: partner, with 4=5 (or 4=6) in the majors is going to enjoy the moysian. Hmmmm. Well, the good news is that he will certainly have a chance to use his brain more than he would if he were in his 8 or 9 card fit.

If he bids 4th suit forcing, we will be well on our way to describing this hand with our 3♥ bid (not). Now we cannot get back to ♥ if he insists upon ♠. What if he bids 3♠ after our 3♥ bid??? Unless you play adjective bridge (in which
you can bid 4♥ 'to play'), you are no longer in a position to control the auction.

If you bid 2♣, and he has a gf or invitational hand with 5♥, you will always find that fit.

If he raises ♠, how on earth do we deny our 4th ♠ by bidding 3♥? Such a bid would be ok on values, but surely we risk his bidding 4♠ on the not unreasonable assumption that a 4-4 fit may play better than a 5-3.

And what if he jumps to 4♠? it is an unusual bid, but not impossible with a minimum opening hand and, say, 4=4 in the majors.

If by any chance he fits ♣, will he appreciate that we hold 6 of them? This information may assist him in counting tricks should he be in a quandary about the level to aspire to.

And what if we have caught him on a minimum 3=5=3=2 5 or 6 count? With, say, Jxx Axxxx xxx xx? Might he pass 1♠? Especially if 1♠ promised an unbalanced hand, where he fears a stiff ♥?

I agree (finally) with the comment that 1♠ will be okay if partner wants to play a moysian, under the mistaken view that it is a 4-4 fit, provided that we do not have an 8 or longer ♥ fit. It does strike me that the moysian ♥ fit should play as well, and it is not beyond the ability of most good players to find that fit: moreover, they may find it knowing what they are doing, rather than by misleading partner. For example, I play that 2♦ over 2♣ is artificial, forcing one round. I can now bid 2 or 3♥.

Having an auction that describes your hand while allowing partner to make an informed decision: now that would really be using one's brain.

[Al_U_Card]

mikeh, on Nov 15 2005, 02:56 PM, said:

Having an auction that describes your hand while allowing partner to make an informed decision: now that would really be using one's brain.

Clearly a case of negative inferences (why didn't he bid THAT instead) makes the 2C call easier on pard's brainpan