[microcap]

Scoring: IMP

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Playing 2/1--

These were the two hands--Rex was North, I was South. The bidding started innocently enough-- 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥. Now Rex bid 3♦ showing a 5th diamond and extras. I tried 3♠, meant as a cue since it couldnt be natural at this point. Rex bid 3NT naturally, and I bid 4♣ as another cue. Rex bid 4♥, then I bid 4♠ as RKCB for hearts. Fortunately, Rex forgot what this was and bid 5 ♣ to show his void. I thought it was one key card, and bid 5♥, which went down one anyway LOL

Where did we go wrong, and why? Is there a decent auction that stops in 4♥? The other room went down in 5♥ as well.... thanks to all as always.

[Gerben42]

If you intended both 3♠ and 4♣ as cue and partner did not cue ♦, why did you not pass 4♥? There seems to be a missing ♦ control!

[luke warm]

i can't blame either of you for thinking slammish thoughts, him because your 2H bid made his hand much better and you because his 3D bid gave you a double fit (in your mind)

i don't like the 3D bid, personally... how do you play 4C by rex, after you support hearts (and even tho you'd bid clubs)? in any case, i think

1h : 2c
2d : 2h
2s : 3c
4h

your 3c should warn him of duplication

[Chamaco]

I would not bid twice my diamonds.
To me, 87654 is a 4 card suit
2S keeps the bidding lower and tells pard where my side strength is.

[Winstonm]

This is the reason I don't bid out shape. Instead, I show interest/intentions and locations of controls so....

1H-2C* *First warning flag. Void opposite pard's suit isn't good.
2D-2H
2S*-3C** *Slam interest and control. **cooperating and control.
3S*-4C** More of the same. **more of the same.
4H*-P** *No diamond control. **Me, either.

Winston

[microcap]

Gerben, frankly when he rebid ♦ to show extras, it didnt quite occur to me he had 5 to the 8 LOL I tend to agree with those who didnt like the 3♦ rebid for that reason...

[mike777]

ok , why did he not bid 2s over 2h? To show what diamonds?

[Kalvan14]

2♣ shoud ring a bell for N: I am never happy when the 1st suit of my pard is in my chicane. Anyway, I agree that 2♠ is the best rebid over 2♥. Over 3♣, I would also bid 4♥; at worst I would bid 3♠, and now S would know that there is no control in diamonds.

[Fluffy]

It's not like I dislike the 3♦ bid, it is jsuit that 2♠ is much better

[WrecksVee]

Hello! This is Rex who seldom posts. Jay and I appreciate the input we get from posting our misadventures. It has helped us correct our system and settle disagreements using this source of objective criticism.

I very much like the idea of bidding to show 12 cards if possible. But I have one concern with the 2♠ call. Partner on that auction has not denied four cards in ♠. Does the suggested 2♠ bid deny four cards? If it does not wouldn't partner raise to 3♠? At that, 1♥-2♣-2[RDI]-2♥-2♠-3♠-? I know that partner is at least =4=3=1=5. But I now think it is unclear to partner what suit is trump.

Actually I think that if I had extra values with =4=5=4=0 that I should bid 2♠ instead of 2♦. Better I think to bid the majors since finding a fit for game is more important than keeping the bidding low with 2♦. If this is accepted than there is support that the suggested 2♠ does not show four cards.

But unlike many here I am more concerned about showing shape. When I rebid 3♦ I was trying to learn if there was a nine card diamond fit since that might be a better strain for slam. The suggested 2♠ bid does accomplish that goal since with =1=3=4=5 partner would support the unrebid suit. I could than set hearts by bidding 3♥ or set ♦ by cue bidding.

I do appreciate all the comments that even with our various misunderstandings it seemed plain that there was no diamond control so stopping in 4♥ was possible.

[mike777]

Ok, you are focusing on what 2s and 3d bids mean but the crucial bid here is 2H!

If you agree that 2H is a slam try in hearts then the rest of the bidding is looking for a Heart slam. Easy!

On the other hand if 2H is just some nebulous bid with many possible interpretations than you create a much more difficult bidding system. You and your partner may feel strongly this is best, Good Luck. I just think the advantage of 2/1 is to find your fits at a very low level, it sounds like you play a different style.

[WrecksVee]

I think the support bid of 2♥ shows that slam could be possible if partner has more than a min. So it is not yet a slam try. For me Jacoby 2NT and splinters handle most four card forcing raises so this does tend to be three card support.

I think 1♠-2♣-2♦-4♥ shows that responder has values in clubs and hearts with no control in either spades or diamonds.

1♠-2♣-2♦-3♥ shows that responder has four card support with a good club suit as a source of tricks. This is a hand that is not as well suited to making a splinter or using Jacoby 2NT. I play this as a slam try so it has some extra. If it is too weak I would bid only 2♥ or if it qualified 4♥ as described above.

This is more picture bidding than fast arrival. I do not think this is that unusual an approach. Certainly it is not original with me: see Washington Standard et al

[luke warm]

the 2H bid should have set trumps... it could be 4, but probably is only 3... in either case, 2S can (very rare i think) but doesn't have to be your 3rd (you've already bid diamonds) suit

i'd play it as either bidding out the shape or a control for either nt or slam.. i don't see a problem with partner bidding 3S... matter of fact, i can't even see him bidding 3S.. with a gf hand and heart support, no diamond control, he can bid 3C (my choice) or 4H

[mike777]

WrecksVee, on Nov 12 2005, 07:50 PM, said:

I think the support bid of 2♥ shows that slam could be possible if partner has more than a min.  So it is not yet a slam try.   For me  Jacoby 2NT and splinters handle most four card forcing raises so this does tend to be three card support.

I think 1♠-2♣-2♦-4♥ shows that responder has values in clubs and hearts with no control in either spades or diamonds.

1♠-2♣-2♦-3♥ shows that responder has four card support with a good club suit as a source of tricks.  This is a  hand that is not as well suited to making a splinter or using Jacoby 2NT.  I play this as a slam try so it has some extra.  If it is too weak I would bid only 2♥ or if it qualified 4♥ as described above.

This is more picture bidding than fast arrival.  I do not think this is that unusual an approach.   Certainly it is not original with me: see Washington Standard et al

To follow your own system then rebid 4h not 2h! You have a very minimim hand with clubs and hearts. I think you could come up with a worse hand for 4h but not to many.

I repeat it seems you are playing 2h here with some nebulous meaning. If it is not a slam try why bother? If partner needs a stiff spade they can cuebid 5d now over 4h, perfect!

If this hand is extras bid 2h slam try, if minimum and it is for me, then 4H.

[cherdano]

WrecksVee, on Nov 12 2005, 11:12 PM, said:

Hello!  This is Rex who seldom posts.  Jay and I appreciate the input we get from posting our misadventures.  It has helped us correct our system and settle disagreements using this source of objective criticism.

I very much like the idea of bidding to show 12 cards if possible.  But I have one concern with the 2♠ call.  Partner on that auction has not denied four cards in ♠.  Does the suggested 2♠ bid deny four cards?  If it does not wouldn't partner raise to 3♠?  At that, 1♥-2♣-2[RDI]-2♥-2♠-3♠-? I know that partner is  at least =4=3=1=5.  But I now think it is unclear to partner what suit is trump.

Actually I think that if I had extra values with =4=5=4=0 that I should bid 2♠ instead of 2♦.  Better I think to bid the majors since finding a fit for game is more important than keeping the bidding low with 2♦.  If this is accepted than there is support that the  suggested 2♠ does not show four cards.

But unlike many here I am more concerned about showing shape.  When I rebid 3♦ I was trying to learn if there was a nine card diamond fit since that might be a better strain for slam.  The suggested 2♠ bid does accomplish that goal since with =1=3=4=5 partner would support the unrebid suit.  I could than set hearts by bidding 3♥ or set ♦ by cue bidding.

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

Arend

[WrecksVee]

cherdano, on Nov 13 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

Arend

The point about the ♦ATxx not being good enough for slam is excellent. But if partner has =1=3=4=5 his rebid after the suggested 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠ of 3♦ tells you that he has four ♦. That makes the issue of ♦ losers and wasted points in the black suits clear. So one of us should be able to make the right decision as to level and strain.

I saw that if partner raised ♠ that is =4=3=1=5 or =4=3=0=6. My concern is confusion by partner in thinking that we have a 4-4 ♠ fit. Since I have both major suit kings if I bid RKCB partner has only aces to show. As I know partner has at best ♠Jxxx if he raises I think he will not correct me into the 4-4 fit if I bid the hand to 6♥. As above the distributions are made clear, so it is a question of the partnership determining if they have the right high cards.

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

[mike777]

WrecksVee, on Nov 13 2005, 07:58 AM, said:

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

With 4=5=4=0 I would rebid 2D on almost all hands regardless of HCP. The exception being if my D suit was worthless.

Why? Responder can rebid 2s and I can rebid 3spades now to show this hand. Example:
1H=2C
2D=2S
3S
Note on this auction 2 spades may or may not show 4 card suit but 3 spades rebid does promise 4 cards.

If opener was:
xxx=AKxxx=AKxx=x I would just rebid 2nt not 3 spades. Partner needs to have 14 hcp somewhere for their 2club game force bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I dont like 2H, I would prefer 3H.
Not knowing 2/1 pretty well, I am unsure,
if 2H shows heart support, ... but my feeling
is, it doesnt, i.e. it is only a preference.

Over 3H all bids are clearly cue bids, and 3S
should reveal the duplication, ... and even if not,
over 4C, just bid 4H denying a diamond control,
responder did bid his hand, bidding RKCB is an
overbid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

WrecksVee, on Nov 13 2005, 12:58 PM, said:

cherdano, on Nov 13 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

Arend

The point about the ♦ATxx not being good enough for slam is excellent. But if partner has =1=3=4=5 his rebid after the suggested 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠ of 3♦ tells you that he has four ♦. That makes the issue of ♦ losers and wasted points in the black suits clear. So one of us should be able to make the right decision as to level and strain.

I saw that if partner raised ♠ that is =4=3=1=5 or =4=3=0=6. My concern is confusion by partner in thinking that we have a 4-4 ♠ fit. Since I have both major suit kings if I bid RKCB partner has only aces to show. As I know partner has at best ♠Jxxx if he raises I think he will not correct me into the 4-4 fit if I bid the hand to 6♥. As above the distributions are made clear, so it is a question of the partnership determining if they have the right high cards.

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

Don't worry about that, when opener bids 4th suit on a GF forcing situation it doesn't show 4 cards always, partner will know you could have just 3.