[Free]

How would you defend against a 2♥ opening showing a weak hand with at least 4-4 ♠-♥?

In case it's important, responses to the 2♥ opening:
pass = to play, but may be very weak and no fit (putting pressure to 4th seat bidder)
2♠ = to play
2NT = relay, usually inv+
3m = natural NF, total misfit
3/4M = to play

[whereagles]

That is an annoying bid to defend against, since 3rd player can play a serious bluff on you by passing.

I would not neglect the major suits because people tend to open 2H on such junky suits that 4M is definitely still in the picture. I'd try something like this:

2H ..?
X = take-out of hearts (Lebensohl responses) or 18+ any shape.
2S = natural, 6 cards.
2ST = 16-18 system on.
3m = natural overcall.
3M = natural 6-7 card overcall.
3NT = 19-22 or something like that.
4m = leaping michaels.
pass + dbl of subsequent 2S = take-out of spades
pass + overcall later = competitive
pass + 2NT later = minors

Same thing 4th seat, with a point or two less, and..
2H pass pass X = take-out of hearts.
2H pass 2S X = take-out of spades.

[hrothgar]

I think that it is imperative that you play methods designed to penalize the opening bidder. If you play takeout oriented methods the opponents will rob you blind. Equally significant, you'll often find yourself propelled into bad 3N contracts because you were never able to show your strong NT hand "naturally".

If it we're me, I'd lean towards something like the following

X = Balanced or takeout of Spades.
Minimum balanced hands (13 HCP or so) promise Hxx or better in Hearts. Stronger hands could be forced to double with xxx in trump.

2♠ = Takeout double of Hearts

2N = puppet to 3♣

3♣ = Both minors, competitive

3♦ = Natural

3♥ = 3 Hearts and 1 Spade (5-4 / 4-5 in the minors)

3♠ = 3 Spades and 1 Heart (5-4 / 4-5 in the minors)

[paulg]

David Burn's generic defence to weak 2-suiters can be found on Chris Ryall's Weak 2 Archive site.

Paul

[mila85]

hrothgar, on Nov 12 2005, 07:04 PM, said:

I think that it is imperative that you play methods designed to penalize the opening bidder.  If you play takeout oriented methods the opponents will rob you blind.  Equally significant, you'll often find yourself propelled into bad 3N contracts because you were never able to show your strong NT hand "naturally".

I agree.
You are not in such a bad situation. Your aim is 2Mx, 3nt or 5m. I´m not very afraid of missing major contract.

dbl. 13+ balanced, often passed out, lebensohl on
2♠ short heards (takeout of natural 2♥), 12+, lebensohl on
2nt short spades, 14+
3m solid overcall
3M asks stoper
3nt to play
4m 5-5 m+M
4nt 5-5 m's

with short spades and 12-13 you can pass and reopen with double if they correct to spades

With 6 good cards in major you bid 2♠/2nt and shows your suit naturaly next round.

At reopen is bidding natural.

[DelfinoD]

I think you can play quite good against it without complicated system. I would use:

x - 13+ (or 15+ if you want) pc balanced hand, or hearts
2s - natural 6+
2nt - minors
3h - very strong take-out
rest - natural

[Winstonm]

I think the theory here is to penalize first and bid second; although creating difficulty, the opponents have sacrificed a degree of safety with these method - in order to get back to balance, when they are wrong they must be severely penalized in order to make up for the times when they steal or get you to the wrong contract.

The hands most likely to get buried are the balanced hands - I remember playing against this once in a tournament and having to come with a defense on the spot off the top of our heads - we discarded the "prepared" defense opps submitted (By the way, this is a sillly notion as they only have to provide a written approved defense, and they can pick the worst of the lot to give to you.)

What we came up with was this:

Dble: 14-17 balanced with hearts stopped.
2S: 14-17 balanced with spades stopped but not hearts.
2N: good minor hand.
3C/3D: natural
3H/3S: Semi-solid minor with the bid suit stopped.

In a 26 board match, it came up once, and we played 2H doubled for +1100 and the match.

[MickyB]

I agree that double as balanced is best in direct seat. Not sure whether it is best to keep it like this in 4th seat, or revert to takeout. Certainly seems best to revert to takeout by a passed hand.

Richard suggested that the double should include hands with ♠ shortage. How would you then play 2♥-X-2♠-X? Should 2nd seat pull with spade shortage? I'm tempted to sit and wait with ♠ shortage, but that could backfire.

2♠ as takeout of hearts makes sense...should it be forcing or NF? If NF, then I guess big hands either have to bid an artificial 2NT or cuebid. If it is forcing, 2NT and the cuebid can probably both be used as 2 suiters.

[Robert]

Hello whereagles

I suspect that good five card suits should bid (2H)-2S, they are trying to steal and forcing yourself to pass with a good hand and 5 good spades is giving in to their methods.

That is my normal Flannery defense when their opening has 4S and 5H. Works quite a bit of the time. You have already shown values with your 2S and if partner does not hold spade support, he can bid a minor or even NT as desired.

I also try to fight back by bidding (2H)-3H asks partner for a stopper(I tend to have a solid minor and hope for 3NT)

I agree on the rest of your methods. Very well done.

Hi hrothgar

I am a bit nervous about your double of (2H) showing xxx or better 'or' takeout of spades. If is is a balanced hand with xxx(x) of hearts it is not a 'takeout' of spades. If is a takeout of spades, it should have xx or x of hearts in most cases.

The two options appear to clash in meeting two different reguirements at the same time.

If you use the 'multi' type defense that double shows a balanced 12+-16HCP count, you can very often try for a penalty. Partner passes with hearts and either bids NT or a suit as needed. They are in a doubled 2H contract so a 'bluff' pass by their partner might result in real carnage.

If you have a takeout double of a major, you can pass and double 'if' there is a later chance. With 'extra' values, doubling their 2H bid will often show a profit, if partner bids your 'short' suit, your 'extra' values should allow you to bid NT.

If you hold the hearts with an unbalnced hand, pass is not giving up, partner is still there and can start the doubling with values. If partner doubles for takeout and you are looking at AQ10xx pass seems a reasonable bid. This method has some faults but it is higly penalty oriented and starts off by doubling their opening bid.

I like to play a (2H)-2S overcall as natural. What do you bid with AKJ9x 'if' (2H)-2S* is takeout, your partner might not understand your 'takeout' bid and foolishly bid a minor.

I also like to keep the 2NT overcall to define the range. 12+-16 Xs. 17-19 bids 2NT and 20+ doubles and rebids. Doubling with 12+ to 'unlimited' will leave partner guessing even using a lebensohl like 2NT. If the other pair puts in a 3M raise, even a 2NT* Lebensohl style becomes impossible.

Hi Micky B

I think that you are supposed to double after (2H)-X-(2S) for 'takeout.' If you hold the spades, partner hopefully is short and will reopen for 'takeout." If partner does have good spades, the other pair is currently in 2SXed after you double for takeout.

After (2H)-X-(2S)-p-p-partner is still there and can often double again(with a spade doubleton) which will often be the case. The hand will tend to only be passed out if you hold a penalty type holding and partner has 3 cards. You rate to go positive in that defending situation.

If they are playing games, they are playing in your spade suit. Unless you hold close to an opening bid, defending their 2S contract should compensate you for your part score. If either one of your pair has shortage, his takeout double will 'carry out' the other pair's 2S bid.

With almost opening bid values opposite partner's takeout double, you might just have to punt. At least in most cases you can double them out when it is right and outbid them if neither one of your partnership has a strong holding in their suit.

Sometimes you just get 'fixed' and sometimes you get plus 1,100. That looks real look at IMPs and not too bad even at MPs.

Regards,
Robert

[MickyB]

Robert, on Nov 19 2005, 12:20 AM, said:

Hi hrothgar

I am a bit nervous about your double of (2H) showing xxx or better 'or' takeout of spades. If is is a balanced hand with xxx(x) of hearts it is not a 'takeout' of spades. If is a takeout of spades, it should have xx or x of hearts in most cases.

No - takeout of spades should have heart length and spade shortage. 4-1-4-4 would bid 2♠.

[Robert]

hello MickyB

hrothgar posted

In his third paragraph, "X=balanced or takeout of spades."

Doesn't X=Balanced('minimum balnced hands of 13 or so shows Hxx of hearts'
preclude an overcall of 2Ss with say AKJ9x xx AJ10x xx

If X='takeout of spades wouldn't that be 1444 or 1345 types. That doesn't look like it can co-exist with a "balanced hand"=meaning with Hxx of hearts if @13HCP

You aren't suggesting that a 'takeout of spades' means exactly 2=3=4=4 with Hxx of hearts, I hope.

Whatever the meaning, what is partner supposed to do opposite either a 1444 type or 4342 or 3343 'take out of spades' or a 'minimum balanced hand' with a spade suit? KQxxx Opposite the 1444 type he should not bid spades. Opposite the 4342 or 3343 type he has a 8-9 card spade fit with KQxxx Opposite the 1444 shape he has a 5-1 spade fit and a known 4 spades behind him.

I have no problem with (2H)-2S showing 4144 types, however, what do you bid with AKJ9x xx AJxx xx This is not Hxx 'balanced' and it certainly is not "Hxx" of hearts showing @13HCP 'or so.' It also does not look like any possible 'takeout of spades' meaning!

Regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

The first target against a 2♥ Ekren style is to penalize the contract. The assumed fit theory gives to the 2♥ opener 2 chances out of 3 to find a fit. This also means that 1 times out of 3 he has no fit, and is ready for the carving.

I play 2♥ 4/+ in both majors and weak (5-9), btw.

My defense against it is:

• double: balanced hand, 14/18 HCP. Aimed to penalty, and this means that you have a good holding in the majors if you are minimum.
  
• 2S: natural, 6 cards, good suit. NF.
  
• 2NT: take-out of both majors, or a very strong hand. Forcing.
  
• 3m: natural, forward going (not forcing)
  
• 3M: stopper where bid, aimed to 3N
  
• 3N, 4M: to play
  
• 4m: minor 2-suiter, 3.5-4 losers (4C=hearts shortness, 4D=spades shortness)

Whatever you do, KISS principle applies. And a penalty double is the juicier option.

[han]

I like Richard's suggested defense. I don't understand Robert's problems with this double.