[the hog]

Imps nv v vul

1)
Ax
98xx
x
AK9xxx

1C (1S) X (3S)
The X guarantees 4H. 3S was pre emptive. Your bid?

2)
A
AKQx
AJTxx
AJx

2C 2D (2D = waiting)
If you bid 3D pd will bid 3S. Now what?
Does anyone know of a Kokish like structure to handle finding a possible H fit in this auction?

Ron

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ron!
1. 4HE, if it is just to compete, how I play. Other bids will be transfers, include DBL, except 3NT.
2. 3NT - with 4 losers better to stay below 3NT. If p have 3 cover cards he will continue.
I played simple convention, similar to CONFI (ROMEX).
Cheapest suit ask p to bid any 4+ suit and no skip one for longer other. Another bids show cheapest 5+suit, also no skip one for higher or longer one.
Example:
A Kxxxx
AKQx xxxx
AJTxx Qx
AJx Kx

2CL 2DI
2HE(1) 2SP(2)
3DI(3) 3HE(4)
...

1. Convention, start of bidding 4+ card suits
2. 2SP: 4+ cards, doesnt deny longer side suit
3. 4+DI, deny 4+SP or 4+CL
4. 4+HE, deny 4+DI, can have 4+CL or 5+SP
.....
Note: No need to use more 2NT rebid as bal hand, can use it as any other convention, say 3 suiter like Ben.
Misho

[rtewari]

Another popular convention is to play transfer bids after waiting 2D bid.

2C - 2D - 2H = Hearts or Balanced
- 2S = Spades
- 2NT/3C = Clubs/Diamonds

This makes it easier to show a second suit without getting too high.

[easy]

a. I bid 4h (with conviction, no need to let the opponents know if have made an "iffy" bid). Granted 4h may have no play but it is game and this is imps. I'm not sure what a bid of 4C would accomplish and pass isnt in my vocabulary with a 6-4 hand and a fit (btw x may not show 4h, sometimes pard is stuck with a good hand and no other viable bid)

b. if i have rebid 3d it is because i have decided to treat the hand as unbalanced and im going all the way ie: i bid 4h. However i would have chosen a rebid of 2nt (22-24). As we all know minor suit hands are the toughest to describe.... so we make a decision and live with it.

I dont know of a kokish structure after the 3d rebid. If anyone does please let us know.

[inquiry]

Quote

Imps nv v vul

Ax
98xx
x
AK9xxx

1C (1S) X (3S)
The X guarantees 4H. 3S was pre emptive. Your bid?

This hand is not very clear. I certainly don't mind one little bit bidding 4H's with this 6/4 hand minimum hcp hand. On a good day it will make, and it will never be down a lot. But before you bid, you have to stop and think a minute that this is imps and what will you do if it goes 4S and two passes back to you at this vul?

If you will let them play 4S's at unfavorable vul, do you really want to encourage a heart lead? Do you even want to encourage them to bid 4S? After all, how "preemptive'" can 3S be at this vulnerability.

You have to answer this question before you make your second bid. If the answer is you will let them play 4S, unless you plan on doubling, I think pass is better. The reason being a) partner will not lead away from vuneralbe heart stopper (like heart KJxx) if you don't bid hearts, a heart lead might be the only one that allows them to make 4S, and West is actually less likely to bid 4S if you pass than if you bid 4H.

If you plan to bid over 4S, feel free to bid 4H and pull 4S to 5C. After all they are vulnerable and your are not, and if they can make 4S, 5C or 5H should be a fairly cheap save.

As an intermediate position, you might bid 4C to encourage a club lead and to keep the auction alive. I have to say that 4C is only the optimal strategy if they can make exactly 3S without a heart lead and you have 9 or 10 tricks in clubs, but only 9 tricks in hearts.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Imps nv v vul

1)
Ax
98xx
x
AK9xxx

1C (1S) X (3S)
The X guarantees 4H. 3S was pre emptive. Your bid?

2)
A
AKQx
AJTxx
AJx

2C 2D (2D = waiting)
If you bid 3D pd will bid 3S. Now what?
Does anyone know of a Kokish like structure to handle finding a possible H fit in this auction?

Ron

1) 3NT
First of all I can make this game and it may be easier than 4h, and second if can prevent them from playing a makeable 4s contract.

2) Over 2d I'd just bid 2NT, I guess it's the most healthy way to start the auction. Now pd can use transfers, stayman and other nice tools we may have over a 2nt opening and we'll better positioned in the auction.

[flytoox]

Luis, I think 3N in the first hand is wrong, if it is to play. I think 4h is much better than 3N. Pd is likely to have 2-4-5-2 or 2-4-4-3. To make 3N, pd has to have cq, haq or cq,both red suit aces. with this holding 4h is a sure make.

Ben's suggestion about possible 4s is well thought, but should not be a big problem here for the vul. Also, i wont encourage pd to go to 5. After all, my h is too broke and pd doesnt need much to dbl 1s at the one level. If opp bid 4s, i would dbl, i have trump control, we should be able to get one or two tricks.

[inquiry]

Quote

Luis, I think 3N in the first hand is wrong, if it is to play. I think 4h is much better than 3N. Pd is likely to have 2-4-5-2 or 2-4-4-3. To make 3N, pd has to have cq, haq or cq,both red suit aces. with this holding 4h is a sure make.

Ben's suggestion about possible 4s is well thought, but should not be a big problem here for the vul. Also, i wont encourage pd to go to 5. After all, my h is too broke and pd doesnt need much to dbl 1s at the one level. If opp bid 4s, i would dbl, i have trump control, we should be able to get one or two tricks.

Actually, in my "suggestion" I never suggested an actual bid, I offered up a couple of options, all of which you have to consider what your rebid would be. Your option over 4S is to double, and not worry about partner leading a heart. So for you the right bid has to be 4H. This would not be my bid.

Luis had the same concern I expressed. 3NT has a couple of great advantages. First, you might make it. Second, it is even more likely to prevent vul opponents from bidding 4S than pass, so you don't have to deal with that problem. Third, partner will know that 3NT is based upon long clubs, and so 3NT does not encourage a potentially deadly heart lead. I think 3NT is probably the best bid.

[hrothgar]

Imps nv v vul

1)
Ax
98xx
x
AK9xxx

1C (1S) X (3S)
The X guarantees 4H. 3S was pre emptive. Your bid?

Yowsa. Rough question which brings up an interesting question. What should 4C mean in an otherwsie standard system.

There would appear to be four reasonable candidates:

1. Natural, showing a very good club suit and denying a spade stopper.
2. Cue bid in support of Hearts
3. Fit showing non-jump
4. Low level RKCB

During this type of live competitive auction, it might make sense to put game before slam.
Partner needs to be able to make an informed decision over the opponent's 4S bid. A fit showing non-jump is the most likely bid to provide this information.

My guess is that the fit non-jump treatment would yeild the highest expected value to the partnership. [Please note, I missed the last fit non-jump that Ron made, so its very dangerous for me to recommend this bid]

[inquiry]

Quote

[color=Yellow]Imps nv v vul

My guess is that the fit non-jump treatment would yeild the highest expected value to the partnership. [Please note, I missed the last fit non-jump that Ron made, so its very dangerous for me to recommend this bid]

Fit non-jump by opener in his own suit, certainly a non-standard treatment. I use all kinds of fit nonjumps, but this one would never occur to me. :-)

I use fit nonjump by responder, and even fit nonjump by responder after a forcing notrump. Recent auction (I thought)

1S-P-1N-P
3D-3H-5C-P
6C-all pass

Where 5C was good Diamond fit, good clubs (for the forcing NT). I actually bid 2C instead of 1NT, but thought I bid 1NT, so nevermind the real auction... but on the given auction...5C HAS TO BE diamond fit and clubs.

Ben

[flytoox]

Why do you worrry about the heart lead if opp declare? I think pd will lead your club most of the time here. He is likely to have heart aq or kj and short club.

[inquiry]

Quote

Why do you worrry about the heart lead if opp declare? I think pd will lead your club most of the time here. He is likely to have heart aq or kj and short club.

Because 1C can be prepared, a partner with HKxxx. H-KJxx, H-QTxx, might find it hard to believe that I bid a 9 high suit at the four level and lead one. If partner has heart AQxx, I suspect he might not lead one, but even that is not etched in stone. My experience is that when you "support" partners suit after opening a minor (As in this case), partner tends to lead your combined suit. Actually what you probably want is a diamond lead, win a spade, hit partner's hand in hearts or maybe clubs, and get a diamond ruff.

Ben

[the hog]

For those of you who would like to know the outcome of hand 1)

I bid 4H on the hand, even though I hated it, not least for the problem that 4S was going to cause. 4H was passed out. Pd held:
Qx
JTxx
AJTx
JTx

A S was led and the Q held. End of story - Qx of C was on side. 3N would of course also have made on a S lead, though naturally can be defeated on any other lead. You are likely to get a S lead on this of course.
3N did not occur to me I must admit, - how many off are you going if C don't run and if pd does not have a S stop? In retrospect and after reading comments here, it definitely deserves consideration.

On hand 2 my pd rebid 2N. I held
Txxxx
xxx
KQxx
x
transferred to S and rebid 3N. As you can see, 6D is cold. Same auction in the other room.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben!
Your fit is 4 small cards but still remain FIT. After sure 9 cards opp fit, it is very possible you have one too and you cant be sure in CL or in HE. 4HE "just to compete" mean you have distribution, so you show your CL suit too (depend of level of p ofcourse, but I think we talk about good bridge). You can be calm about HE lead, it will very rare happen - not good lead in our fit, If opp have 5+ - 4+ fit. I expect my p to lead trump, if he have DI or CL, if he is short there. 4HE bid also mean I know what I will do over 4SP - DBL. I have enough QT for defense and distribution for sacrifice. With nice HE&CL only and p pass I will bid 5CL, not DBL. If he dont have def trick, he can continue.
Why not 4CL? Because I dont have enough HCP, Tricks, H in He... P can bid slam over such bid will be right expecting more for such bid.

Hi Luis!
I dont like 3NT with such hand, even as psyche, because unlimited P. You can bid 3NT with 18-19 bal hand too I suppose... Also with playable 6+CL and stopper SP. But still your p will expect better CL suit, more strength and definitely will never expect 4 cards fit in HE. You can simple go down on 3NT contract, because ONLY way to make it is IF your p have Q CL. 4HE is statistically better contract with such hand, opps in vul will not tend to sacrifice 4SP.

Misho

[paulg]

Quote

For those of you who would like to know the outcome of hand 1)

I bid 4H on the hand, even though I hated it, not least for the problem that 4S was going to cause. 4H was passed out. Pd held:
Qx
JTxx
AJTx
JTx

A S was led and the Q held. End of story - Qx of C was on side. 3N would of course also have made on a S lead, though naturally can be defeated on any other lead. You are likely to get a S lead on this of course.
3N did not occur to me I must admit, - how many off are you going if C don't run and if pd does not have a S stop? In retrospect and after reading comments here, it definitely deserves consideration.

4H is clearly a brave bid but almost forced upon those of us who didn't have the imagination to see 3NT. I still probably wouldn't have chosen 3NT but I'd wish I'd had the option

BTW, would partner also have doubled with

Qx or Q
JTx JTx
AJTx AJTxx
JTxx JTxx

regards

paul