[Kalvan14]

Scoring: MP

---

You're S, and bidding goes:
1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♣*

*: FSF - game forcing
Oppos are silent. What do you bid now?

[Winstonm]

I don't see anything better than 3D, bidding out the shape first. I'm afraid if I bid 3H now and pull 3N to 4D pard might take that as a 6/4 with much better hearts and a diamondesque cue bid - but if I bid 3D and follow with 4H I have completed the picture without unduly emphasizing any main feature.

Winston

[mikeh]

3♦.

This is interesting in the context of a recent thread with the same start: is 3♦ a noise bid here? A default stall with unrebiddable ♥, inadequate ♠ and no ♣stopper?

Anyway, regardless, 3♦ it is, because my style of responding to fsf is to get out of partner's way: I do this by making the most descriptive bid, breaking ties or near-ties in favour of the cheaper auction.

Thus, if he is coming in ♥, I think I will be better placed after 3♦ - 3♥ than after 4♦ - 4♥. In that latter auction, I cannot tell if he is slamming in ♥ or merely accepting that we must play a red suit. Nor can he do much intelligent over 4♦ if he is slammish in ♥: he cannot set trump while forcing.

If he is trying for an uncertain 3N, with a stiff ♥, I am better off with 3♦ 3N 4♥ (showing a decent texture 6-5) than I am after 4♦, especially since I am not certain that 4♦ shows the 6-5 as opposed to a picture 5-5 with, say, AKJxx AKQxx (a fraction short of a jump shift to 3♦ over 1♠).

I agree that 4♦ is more descriptive, whatever it means, but I want to hear why partner thinks he has a gf before I tell him more about my hand.

Another way of looking at it is to deal with fsf as if partner were telling you "my hand is such that we are going to game, but my hand is too complex for me to just sign off in game now, so give me room to tell you, next bid, why I am so excited... but in doing so, if convenient, tell me a little more about your hand"

[Kalvan14]

All this is quite interesting. However, i would point out a couple of things:
1. There are a lot of HCP missing (after all you have just 13 HCP). Equally, pard can have a lot of possible hands.
2. Your hand is playable in ♥ or ♦, and you have 4 to 4.5 losers (2 blackies, 2 in ♥ and maybe less than 1/2 in ♦). Unfortunately, three of these losers must be covered by Aces. If pard has KQ♠, KQ♣ and ♥A he is covering 1 to 1.5 losers.
3. pard might have a number of ♠

[mike777]

4D, I really like my hand, and I expect partner to figure this out.

I expect partner to have at least:
AKxxx
xx
xx
AKxx

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE] Mike777 "4D, I really like my hand..."

Hey, Mike. I'm not picking on you but this is the same thing I hear quite often from my regular partner - "I like my hand or I didn't like my hand" - and to keep the peace I have to turn a deaf ear and sometimes ingnore results.

I'm stongly in the camp that there is only one hand and that's the combined hands, regardless of whether one likes or dislikes his particular part in it. I can certainly hold the low range of my bid or the higher range - I can evaluate my hand as of not too much use to the combined assests - but whether or not I really like my hand depends totally on what partner holds, the fits, and the strength of the combined assests.

However, this may not be totally true; if I'm ever dealt AKQJ109876543, A, void, void, I'll probably really like my hand, too.

Never mind.

Winston

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3D showing 5-5, unless 3D is your
default rebid, in which case I would
bid 3H, which should show 6-4.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: A typical question, a forum cant answer,
because is dependent on partnership agreement.

[P_Marlowe]

Kalvan14, on Nov 10 2005, 11:15 PM, said:

All this is quite interesting. However, i would point out a couple of things:
1. There are a lot of HCP missing (after all you have just 13 HCP). Equally, pard can have a lot of possible hands.
2. Your hand is playable in ♥ or ♦, and you have 4 to 4.5 losers (2 blackies, 2 in ♥ and maybe less than 1/2 in ♦). Unfortunately, three of these losers must be covered by Aces. If pard has KQ♠, KQ♣ and ♥A he is covering 1 to 1.5 losers.
3. pard might have a number of ♠

So what? Partner did ask a question, try to
answer the question, ... and do not try to figure
out, what partner really wants, you wont know the
answer until partner tells you.

Just answer his question according to your system
and all will be fine.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Chamaco]

I join the crowd of the 4D bidders.
Simply bidding 3D could be a squeeze rebid, leaving room for a better 3NT or 4M game exploration.

4D is a picture bid, and rates to deliver the message to partner.
If I am going to bypass later a possible 3NT bid by pard and rebid 4D, I think it's much better to do it right away to inform partner of the extreme shape: that should enable him to make a more intelligent decision than if we go slowly with 3D and then 4D..

[Kalvan14]

Apparently I am in a minority of 1: I rebid 4♥. Reasons for that:
- I fear this is a misfit hand, and I don't like 3NT
- my ♥ are pretty solid
- I need 3 Aces or 2Aces and Q♥ to play slam
- after 1♥-1♠, I did not rebid ♥ at any level. I re-bid 2♦, running the risk that (once a year) 2 ♦ might be passed. This should hint to pard that my ♦ are significant.


anyway, after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-4♥, pard comes out with 4♠ (new partnership, but pard is quite a solid player). What now?

[mike777]

[quote name='Winstonm' date='Nov 11 2005, 02:09 AM'] [QUOTE] Mike777 "4D, I really like my hand..."

Hey, Mike. I'm not picking on you but this is the same thing I hear quite often from my regular partner - "I like my hand or I didn't like my hand" - and to keep the peace I have to turn a deaf ear and sometimes ingnore results.

I'm stongly in the camp that there is only one hand and that's the combined hands, regardless of whether one likes or dislikes his particular part in it. I can certainly hold the low range of my bid or the higher range - I can evaluate my hand as of not too much use to the combined assests - but whether or not I really like my hand depends totally on what partner holds, the fits, and the strength of the combined assests.

However, this may not be totally true; if I'm ever dealt AKQJ109876543, A, void, void, I'll probably really like my hand, too.

Never mind.

Winston [/QUOTE]
hmmm this sounds like socialism or some commie stuff. What is yours is mine and mine is yours, share and share alike. Hey keep your paws off my hand buddy .

[whereagles]

4♦ seems right. Descriptive, elegant, correct... and natural!!!

[Kalvan14]

---

You are quite right, in a way. It was a slam try in spades. OTOH, I know the guy, and I was pretty confident that he would not have bid over 4♥ without reasons.
So I bid 6♦, and we played 6♥ (we might have played 6♠ as well).

Why 4♥ and not 4♦ (which might have been a very reasonable alternative, and possibly the most "by the book" bid? because I was afraid of a bad split, a general bad split. And I wanted to put the brakes on.

[adhoc3]

There're still many rooms for probing, 3♦, 3♥, 4♦ are all options. it's only 1/1 FSF.

I'm thinking what would happenw if pd open first?

The bidding may be:

1♠-2♥, 3♣-3♦* *a 2/1 FSF?

3♦ seems not enough to show 6-5 hand, and 4♦ could be competing with PD when totally mis-fitting. Isn't because of unclear 2/1 FSF? If 3♦ is nature strong bid (i.e. no FSF after 2/1, weak hand bid NT), 3♦ will be a perfect discreption of winners. PD can be more certain of where we will land. Noticed if it is agreed 3♦ a 'noise bid', you will have to show nice ♦ on 4th level. Isn't it too high? With the given hands, PD will now know the status of misfittng at 3rd level.

Sorry, I drifted away from here and back to my last post about 2/1 FSF.

Regards,

Jack

Edit: last thread: http://forums.bridge...showtopic=11015

[luke warm]

mike777, on Nov 11 2005, 06:17 PM, said:

hmmm this sounds like socialism or some commie stuff.

lmao