[Flame]

My general rule is that the 3rd suit isnt natural and not showing a 3 suiter, its either semi natural, or its asks for stopper, or its a cue bid showing suppport for partner last suit, Do you have a better rule or set of rules ?
Examples
1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H
1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D
1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D
1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S
Im not looking for optimal answer for those 4 example, im looking for a set of rules or a logic that will help me with the next 10 sequences.

[Fluffy]

CAn't help, I play all bids by opener as natural or semi natural

[Chamaco]

Quote

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H

Artificial.
I cannot think of anythink but a good artificial raise of pard's minor.
Opener has already limited his hand to a minimum, and responder has suggested a signoff in diamonds. The only reason to keep the auction open can be based on reevaluation based on a fit.

Quote

1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D

Is 3C invitational or signoff ?
If it is signoff, the case is similar to the above (3D shows a fit in responder's long minor).

If it is invitational, it can be used either to checkback for (half?) stopper, or to show a fit.

Quote

1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D

Artificial.Seems like a 5-4-0-4 shape with some slam ambitions.

Quote

1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S

Natural, 4-4-0-5 shape, reverse strength.

==========================================

The rules I can think of are:
- when both opener have limited their hands, but opener still keeps the auction alive, that can be based only on some sort of fit.
- when opener (or responder) bypasses 3NT with a new suit, that implies some sort of fit, usually (but not necessarily) for the last bid major.

[han]

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H

Natural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum).


1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D


Similar, but very unusual. A case can be made for treating this one as artificial (as opposed to the first and last, which I think should be natural).


1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D

Cuebid for hearts by default.


1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S

Again, shows a very good hand and something like 3-4-1-5 shape.

[han]

BTW, I think 5-3-0-5 is a more reasonable expectation for hand 3, as with 5-4-0-4 we would usually bid hearts first.

[pclayton]

Flame, on Nov 8 2005, 01:21 AM, said:

My general rule is that the 3rd suit isnt natural and not showing a 3 suiter, its either semi natural, or its asks for stopper, or its a cue bid showing suppport for partner last suit, Do you have a better rule or set of rules ?
Examples
1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H
1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D
1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D
1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S
Im not looking for optimal answer for those 4 example, im looking for a set of rules or a logic that will help me with the next 10 sequences.

Here's what I like:

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H - This shows a heart fragment and tends to run from diamonds. 5=3=1=4 would be typical.

1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D - Still natural - running from clubs; I'd expect 5=4=4=0.

1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D - Sounds like a cuebid for hearts to me; no new suits at the 4 level.

1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S - Ugh! What is 1♠ over 1♥ (natural and a one-round force, I hope)? Sounds like opener is patterning out with a 4=4=0=5 or 3=4=1=5 but in any case it shows at least an ace over a minimum.

As far as a 'rule' goes - all four of these sequences are unique (maybe the 1st 2 aren't) so I wouldn't try to make any kind of universal applications here.

[han]

How about this rule: natural unless agreed it is not.

[Flame]

Hannie, on Nov 8 2005, 03:19 PM, said:

How about this rule: natural unless agreed it is not.

what i see is all of you have different interpetations for many of the seqences.

[Robert]

Hello Flame

Without any other agreements, I like Fluffys' method. Suits are natural if that agreement is at all possible. I like to show my shape so partner can judge the degree of fit.

Certain bids are 'alarm clock' bids. 1H-1NT-2m-2S* shows a good raise to 3m since partner did not bid 1H-1S.

I recently 'converted' to a 'double transfer' like auction for 1M-1NT-2C-2D* that will show various hand types if partner will relay/puppet to 2Hs. I am willing to give up playing exacting 2Ds to better define many other auctions.

I really like Al Roths' non forcing, new suit at the 3 level auctions in his Picture Bidding book.

He trys to bid his three suiters 'including 5431 shapes(showing the 3 card fragment at the three level(with the required values present) and partner is allowed to pass or bid on as needed.

Regards,
Robert

[Chamaco]

Hannie, on Nov 8 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H

Natural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum).

Right, here we are talking SAYC or 2/1.
That's why I think 2C is nonforcing over 1NT in these systems.
If so, it does limit opener's hand

[Robert]

Hello everyone

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H can be played as natural with a very good hand. I would expect near jump shift values from my partner(17-18HCP)

The 1S-1NT-2C bid is only limited by the fact that opener did not bid 1S-1NT-3C.

Some play jump shifts as one round forces in standard. I play them as game forces, however, I do make an exception for letting partner pass 4m, if 3NT is unplayable.

Regards,
Robert

[Flame]

Chamaco, on Nov 9 2005, 03:09 AM, said:

Hannie, on Nov 8 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H

Natural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum).

I thought 2C was nonforcing over 1NT.
If so, it does limit opener's hand

The range is very witdh in sayc or 2/1, something like good 10 to bad 18

[luke warm]

1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H - responder can pass 2C, so i'd play 2H as showing a 5314 hand

1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D - bidding out his shape? maybe 5=1=3=4

1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D - monster hand, void/stiff hearts... 5044 maybe

1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S - another good hand.. 4=4=1=4?