[microcap]

Rex and I had yet another snafu with these hands

Scoring: IMP

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Rex opens 1♥, I respond 1♠, Rex bids 2♦, now I bid 3♣ FSF. Stuck for another bid, Rex tried 3♦. Now I thought he was 5-5 or 6-5 in the reds and got too carried away, ending up in 6♦ dbled.

Does anyone have any good ideas for this general sequence? Thanks!!!

[Al_U_Card]

I would think that 3S would be a preference showing a doubleton S without a C stop for NT play

[junyi_zhu]

microcap, on Nov 3 2005, 06:36 PM, said:

Rex and I had yet another snafu with these hands

Scoring: IMP

---

Rex opens 1♥, I respond 1♠, Rex bids 2♦, now I bid 3♣ FSF. Stuck for another bid, Rex tried 3♦. Now I thought he was 5-5 or 6-5 in the reds and got too carried away, ending up in 6♦ dbled.

Does anyone have any good ideas for this general sequence? Thanks!!!

My solution is to rebid 1nt with 5-4 minimum.
So now your 2D shows some extra, or 5-5. (you may get to 3nt with 5-5 minimum facing a invitational 2nt hand, so be strong to play this method.)
After that, you can give up invitational 2nt and play 2nt as gameforcing.
If you want to invite, you can start from 3C to invite in either S/H/D.(opener bids 3D to show min and bid his hand naturally otherwise)
Over 2NT, opener can bid 3C as a waiting bid, 3D to show long D, extra, 3H: long H, extra, 3S: 3 sp and extra.

Also, 3D/H/S by responders can be all treated as gf.

[awm]

Recently I've been playing the following method after 1♥-1♠:

1NT = either ♦, or a balanced minimum not wanting to raise ♠ (i.e. 2533, some 35(23)s)
2♣ = natural
2♦ = good raise of ♠, like a 2.5♠ bid
2♥ = natural
2♠ = natural, but see 2♦; often this is 3-card support only

The 1NT rebid is very rarely passed. Basically we have lost here the ability to play 1NT after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT. This is pretty infrequent anyway, especially if you often raise spades with three cards on a balanced hand (which I do).

There are two major gains: first, the fourth suit is available at a low level (2♣ is the fourth suit after the 1NT rebid). This makes it a lot easier to disentangle various game force and game invite hands by using 4th suit forcing or (my preference in these auctions) 4th suit invitational. Second, the 2♦ bid as a "good spade raise" is very powerful, as it increases the accuracy of our game bidding while simultaneously letting us stop at the two level more often.

With the hands in question you could have an auction like:

1♥-1♠-1NT (diamonds or natural)-2♣ (4th suit GF)-2♠ (likely doubleton, might try 3♠ with three and extras)-3♣ (natural, 5-5 hand)-3NT (no interest in partner's suits)

1♥-1♠-1NT (diamonds or natural)-3♣ (natural GF, 4th suit would be inv+ checkback)-3NT (2-2 in your suits).

[mikeh]

As Justin says, this is a terrible sequence for standard bidders. My solution differs from his, but I am not saying it is any better: it has different detriments, that's all.

I would rebid 3♥ on your auction.

But the real answer question is not 'what should I bid here?'. It is 'what are we going to agree is our default 'noise' bid?'

So Justin would agree with his partner that the default, nothing really to say, bid is 3♠ and I and my partner would agree that it is 3♥.

Put me into a situation with a partner with whom I have had no discussion and I would guess. Since your actual table solution (your partner's) was just as reasonable (3♦ is the 'noise' bid), this is just one of those unlucky hands. But all serious partnerships should have an explicit agreement on this as well as other problem sequences (1♦ 2♦ ? is another probelm sequence, altho not as bad as this 4th suit forcing nightmare)

[Al_U_Card]

mikeh, on Nov 3 2005, 04:03 PM, said:

I would rebid 3♥ on your auction.

The idea being that 3S would show 3?

[Robert]

Hello everyone

This is a terrible auction for most systems. Canape might solve the shapes, however, canape has its own problem areas.

I do not like to play a rebid of 3H is the 'noise' bid. What do you bid with extra values and 6Hs and 4Ds if '3H' is just marking time?

Only after extensive discussion 3D may be used as the 'noise' bid, since that is not losing a really common 'vital' hand type. 5-5 in the reds isn't nearly as important as finding our major fits. With extra values, you can pull 3NT to 4D after making a 3D 'noise' bid with 5-5 or 6-5 Reds.

I kind of like bidding 3S as the 'noise' bid. My style would be to jump to 4S holding extras values and 3 spades. With minimum values, I tend to raise directly to 2S after 1H-1S-? with 3 card support. Playing natural methods, I like to play Flannery so this is not often a problem auction for my pair.

Partner should normally have 5 spades on this auction, since he did not bid 1H-2m
If you happen to play Flannery, this auction promises 5 spades(some play four very strong ones may also be included)

I prefer the 3S 'noise' bid to using 1H-1S-1NT to include 2542 hands 'without' a club stopper. If partner bids a NT game, we are playing it from the wrong side or perhaps we even managed to get to 3NT 'without' any club stopper. The price is much too high for my style.

The real horror hand is 1543 which I suspect gets to bid 3NT 'if' there is no agreement that 3Ds is just 'a noise' bid.

If 3D is agreed to be the 'noise' bid, you should define whether 3D-3H is asking for a fifth diamond or a partial club stop. That might get some bridge players into an auction of 1H-1S-2D-3C-3D*-3H*-3S* with three 'noise' bids in a row used to indicate that even a novice would lead clubs against our final contract.

I saw another thread asking about relay auctions proiblem hand, however, they have their own problems.

Regards,
Robert

[han]

1H-1S-2D-3C his is a nightmare auction indeed. There is more than one way to "solve" this (use 2NT as New Suith Invitational!) but most partnerships will be stuck with FSF. I prefer to agree that a 3D bid doesn't show anything in this auction, and that 3H and 3S are honest bids (3S can be honor-doubleton).

[david_c]

How about playing 3♦ shows nothing in particular, 3♠ shows 5 diamonds ...

(With apologies to all the natural bidders out there. Sorry, I couldn't resist it.)

[Kalvan14]

I prefer 3♥ as "noise bid", since it caters for all possible distributions of opener (including 1-5-4-3) and it is the least ambiguous.
With 6♥/4♦ and extras I bid 4♥ (good suit).
3♠ is 3 cards and extras; 4♠ 3 cards w/o extras.
3♦ is certainly at least 5♦.

There is one point, though: given the awkwardness of this sequence in Standard, advancer should refrain as much as possible from using FSF (not this case: I agree that there is a reasonable chance for a slam)

[stuartmn]

I like 3hts as Al says,its like 2h after 1h-2d-2h not necessarily shwing 6hts and 2n would show stoppers in unbid suits.But otherwise you might try 3n as a descriptive bid,its hard to see many hands shich can force to game without something in clubs given your hand.Stuart

[mikeh]

Al_U_Card, on Nov 3 2005, 04:38 PM, said:

mikeh, on Nov 3 2005, 04:03 PM, said:

I would rebid 3♥ on your auction.

The idea being that 3S would show 3?

Precisely

It is a specific hand type, and thus low frequency, but it is very useful when it arises.

Not that this is a panacea: this truly is a hideous auction.

I dislike 3♠ as the noise, because partner, with 5♠ and a ♣ stopper, has to guess.

3♥ as the noise suffers from the very real problem that partner may be endplayed into bidding 4♥, and now opener doesn't know if 4♥ was an endplayed bid or a slamtry: a slam try because with a minimum game force in ♥, responder would not have used FSF.

3♦ as the noise is probably theoretically best because:

it preserves 3♥/3♠ as natural, slam interest bids, and

the hands on which it is important to show the 5th ♦ are less frequent (in my view) than those on which it is best to show genuine 'extra' length in the major

But in my experience, most partners prefer 3♦ as real, hence my vote for 3♥ as what I would likely be playing.

Plus, 3♦ as the noise fits with a very useful general rule: when no bid accurately describes your hand, make the distortion that consumes the least space: it usually maximizes the chances of the partnership working out the right spot

[Robert]

Hello everyone

Perhaps the bidding fell apart sometime after the 3D call. If you play that a 4D bid is a one round force. You mildly suggest a slam to partner, who can attempt to slow down the auction if partner is also 'in doubt.'

You should not have gotten to 6Ds doubled. Some agreement should have hopefully prevented this disaster.

If it is too late to save that board, you should have a discussion that produces whatever agreements that are needed to prevent another 6D(doubled or not) contract.

I am just guessing that it went 3D-4NT(or some Keycard agreement for diamonds)
Since you did not know that there was more than a 4-3 fit, Ace asking bid might have been an premature.

If you did take a view that you had a 5-3 fit, perhaps an auction that 'suggested' slam would have been better than whatever auction led to 6DX.

If you play 3D-4D is a one round force, partner can attempt to sign off in a major 'if' they do not hold either slam ambitions or a fifth diamond. My style is to allow 4M to be passed 'if' the minor has not been 'fixed' as trump.

This is a delicate area and should be a subject for partnership agreements.
My general rule is Game before Slam. Your slam auctions are somewhere in the 5% bidding area. Get your game decisions correct and you will normally have a good card to compare scores after the game.

Some pairs play that my suggested 4D bid is RKC for diamonds. My agreements do not allow for that understanding. If you did use 4D as RKC for Ds, you would be able to sign off in 5Ds, hopefully not doubled 'unless it makes.'

Slam bidding is a important area of bidding and many agreements are needed to resolve slam bidding issuses. The fourth suit forcing 3C bid and slam bidding are both important areas for partnership agreement.

Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Hello everyone

The bidding 4Hs 'showing' a good suit is a fine idea, when you have the 'good' suit and partner has some tolerence. Or when you have a very good suit and partner passes 4Hs.

3H showing a sixth heart and extra values is an important hand type to show.
We can still play 3NT, however, if you have to jump to 4H to show the sixth heart and extra values? You lose cuebidding room and cannot play 3NT.

Moderate six card heart suits cannot use this method so the 3H* noise method suffers when typical 6H and 4D hands with extra values are held.

Getting to 3NT after a 4H bid requires a very understanding
other pair at the table. "Do you mind if we go back and bid 3NT?"

My partner is generally not very understanding when I go down in 3NT when I 'expected' a suitable club stopper to appear from his hand. I prefer to cope with a 'noise' type bid if room permits. Sometimes you do have to bid and hope that partner can cover the problem area. This 3C FSF area does have some room to explore 'if' you are playing in a regular partnership.

Hi Jlall I do bid 4S over 3C with 3 spades and extra values. Partner cannot bid 3NT over that 4S bid, however, they can normally scramble ten tricks with his game forcing values plus my 'extra' values even in a possible 4-3 fit.

Flannery solves the 4-3 fit problem 'if' you play Flannery. If you choose not to play Flannery, you get to sometimes raise with 3 card spade support.

My 3S bid does show a doubleton spade. I raise directly with minimum hand types that want to raise spades with 3 card support. With extra values and 3 card spade support I 'jump' when giving support 'if' the auction does not provide the needed bidding space.

Hi DavidC Please feel free to suggest non standard meanings for bids. I tend to follow that school of bridge 'if' it solves some problem. Some of the bidding over my 1NT opening causes natural bidders to roll their eyes and also causes much shaking of their heads. I do not care about the rolling of the eyes and head shaking 'if' my bidding is improved.

I would try the 3S bid showing 5 diamonds 'if' it did not also cost me the 3D bid used as a 'noise' bid. Just a matter of style. I do like your thinking outside of the box. Perhaps I can get the 3S* bid to work, if only I can figure out some way to show a 4-4 D fit?

Regards,
Robert

[P_Marlowe]

mikeh, on Nov 3 2005, 04:03 PM, said:

<snip>

I would rebid 3♥ on your auction.

But the real answer question is not 'what should I bid here?'. It is 'what are we going to agree is our default 'noise' bid?'

<snip>

Hi,

I agree completely, if one plays FSF, one should
know the answer to this question.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

rebidding 1NT would solve this, sadly I would never do this with all the honnors in the reds. I consider that hand a 2-suiter, and I would probably bid more or less the same way you did.

[Kalvan14]

Jlall, on Nov 3 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

Kalvan14, on Nov 3 2005, 05:23 PM, said:

4♠ 3 cards w/o extras.

Unfortunately partner can't bid 3N over that.

True. He can bid 4N (to play), if he has been trying to find a slam (4N should be safe; otherwise, look for a new partner) with real ♣.