[Chamaco]

Hi all,
after all the posts about 5C4M hands, the pros of canapè bidding in a strong club context are becoming clearer to me :-)

There is some material (e.g. on Moscito) available about strong club/canapè systems.

However, I was unable to find (probably my fault) a detailed description of HOW OPENER WILL TELL RESPONDER WHETHER HE IS IN CANAPE OR HIS FIRST SUIT BID WAS THE LONGEST.

Of course in most GF sequences this is resolved via a relay sequence.
I am not concerned with such sequences in this post.

Instead, I am curious to know the mechanics of how does opener tell to responder whether he opened a 5 or 4 crd major at his 2nd or 3rd round of bidding, especially:
a. when responder has an invitational hand
b. when responder is weak and looks for a partscore
c. when opps stick into the auction.

Thanks all ! :-)

[Free]

With my f2f partner, we play MOSCITO in 1&2 seat, and a modified version of Weiss Club (p can only be invitational) in 3&4. MOSCITO is only 'possible canapé', where Weiss Club is canapé 'unless with ♣'.

MOSCITO:
If opener has an invitational+ hand, he'll start relays (unless he has a 4+ card fit). During initial relays, opener will show his longer minor with his second rebid. After the invitational with fit, he'll show his longer minor immediatly.
With weaker hands, opener can't show the difference between canapé, but responder only supports partner's Major with fit for the minor. 5-4M hands are bid like in a natural system, so no canapé there.
With ♦ or ♦-♣, we open 1♠ (showing 4+♦). If opponent intervene, we use a NT bid to show a canapé with ♣, bid ♣ with 2-suiter without canapé, and bid ♦ with the singlesuiter.

Weiss Club:
Opener at 1-level promisses a 2-suited canapé opening, unless the second suit is ♣ (then it can be both ways). Simply bidding his second suit shows the canapé. With ♣, we use a NT bid to show the canapé and bid ♣ without the canapé.
In competition, we still use the same principles.

[luke warm]

one thing to add to free's explanation... he menitioned 1nt rebid to show clubs, which is true, but usually shows 5/4 hand... so if it goes
1h : 1s
2h

opener is 6+ hearts and 4+ clubs

[Free]

luke warm, on Oct 19 2005, 11:32 AM, said:

one thing to add to free's explanation... he menitioned 1nt rebid to show clubs, which is true, but usually shows 5/4 hand... so if it goes
1h : 1s
2h

opener is 6+ hearts and 4+ clubs

We use this auction to show 5-5 ♠-♥ To show 5+♥ and 4+♣, we use the 2♣ rebid... That's what I mean with modifications

[hrothgar]

This reply is going to deal with a very specific issue:
Rebid structures after the auction 1M - 1N playing MOSCITO

Certain negative inferences are very important to this discussion. In particular, playing MOSCITO responder is expect to raise a 1M opening to 2M any time that he holds 3 card trump support. (Responder has option to advance to 1NT with a 4333).

Equally significant, responder's 2/1 advance is natural and non-forcing. This ensures that the 1NT advance is quite "natural". If opener shows 4+ Spades, responder does not need to advance 1NT holding a 1=3=5=4 or 1=3=4=5 shape. With one very specific exception, responder always holds 2+ cards in one suit and 3+ cards in the other three. (This exception is a 1=4=4=4 pattern after Opener shows Spades)

Following the auction 1M - 1N, opener has a wide variety of rebids available.
For the purposes of this discussion, we'll focus on auctions like 1♦ - 1N - 2♣ where opener has shown a 2 suited hand with Hearts and Clubs, but the relatively length is ambiguous. In a similar fashion, the auction, 1♥ - 1N - 2♦ shows a 2 suited hand with Spades and Diamonds, however, its unclear whether opener has 4+ Spades and 5+ Diamonds or 5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds.

Consider the auction 1♥ - 1N - 2♦
The 1NT advancer has the following rebid schedule available

A 3♦ raise is blocking, showing a high ODR

2NT is a strong raise of Diamonds, showing both maximum stregth and high ODR

2♠ shows a doubleton in Spades and 3-4 Diamond. Opener will pass with 5+ Spades or rebid Diamonds at the 3 level. Note: If the partnership doesn't have a 5-2 Spade fit, then the are assured a 5-3 Diamond fit. Opener is well positioned to chose the best contract.

2♥ shows a 5 Hearts in a 2=5=3=3 hand than prefered to respond 1NT rather than emphasize the Hearts.

Pass is typically chosen with low ODR hands holding a doubleton heart and 3-4 Diamonds.

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Oct 18 2005, 11:45 PM, said:

Hi all,
after all the posts about 5C4M hands, the pros of canapè bidding in a strong club context are becoming clearer to me :-)

There is some material (e.g. on Moscito) available about strong club/canapè systems.

However, I was unable to find (probably my fault) a detailed description of HOW OPENER WILL TELL RESPONDER WHETHER HE IS IN CANAPE OR HIS FIRST SUIT BID WAS THE LONGEST.

Of course in most GF sequences this is resolved via a relay sequence.
I am not concerned with such sequences in this post.

Instead, I am curious to know the mechanics of how does opener tell to responder whether he opened a 5 or 4 crd major at his 2nd or 3rd round of bidding, especially:
a. when responder has an invitational hand
b. when responder is weak and looks for a partscore
c. when opps stick into the auction.

Thanks all ! :-)

Mauro:

If you are asking is "how does Opener deal with a 1=5=4=3 18 count" after 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S (1N) the answer depends on a few things:

1. Is 1H potentially artificial? Is it forcing?
2. What is 1S / 1N?

If 1H isnt forcing, and 1S is just an attempt to improve the contract, then I would rebid 1N over 1S and pass 1N.

1f 1H might be artificial and be a big balanced hand, and 1S is more or less forced, I cant rebid 1N and I can't rebid 2D, so Im forced to rebid my 5 bagger.

[mike777]

Chamaco, on Oct 19 2005, 02:45 AM, said:

Hi all,
after all the posts about 5C4M hands, the pros of canapè bidding in a strong club context are becoming clearer to me :-)

There is some material (e.g. on Moscito) available about strong club/canapè systems.

However, I was unable to find (probably my fault) a detailed description of HOW OPENER WILL TELL RESPONDER WHETHER HE IS IN CANAPE OR HIS FIRST SUIT BID WAS THE LONGEST.

Of course in most GF sequences this is resolved via a relay sequence.
I am not concerned with such sequences in this post.

Instead, I am curious to know the mechanics of how does opener tell to responder whether he opened a 5 or 4 crd major at his 2nd or 3rd round of bidding, especially:
a. when responder has an invitational hand
b. when responder is weak and looks for a partscore
c. when opps stick into the auction.

Thanks all ! :-)

IF I understand your post you are asking about 4-5 card major and 4-5 clubs in canape sequence given invite, weak or interference sequence?
In Weiss:
btw keep in mind 1h or 1s opening bids promise 2 suits 100% with second suit very often longer.

weak:
1h=1s(weak 3+spades)=2c=longer clubs
1h=1s(wk)=1nt=5-4 or 5-5 hands.
1s=2c(weak 3+clubs)=pass is very often the next bid with many 5-4 or 4-5 hands. But you may rebid 2s with 6 s or super 5s.

Invite:
1h=1nt(10+ often)=2c=longer clubs, but 3c=6+ clubs and max hand.
1h=1nt=2h=minimum hand with 5-6H and 4+ clubs
1H=1nt=3h=max hand 6+h and 4+ c
1H=1nt=2nt=max hand with 5h and 4-5 clubs.
1s=1nt=2c=longer clubs, etc
1s=1nt=2s=minimum 5-6s and 4+ clubs.
1s=1nt=3s=max with 6+s, 4+c
1s=1nt=2nt=max with 5s and 4-5 clubs.

Interference sequence over 1h or 1s opening with clubs as second suit:
First hard rule to remember for non canape players is a direct raise always promises 4+ support, never 3. .
x=basically a probe for second suit and enough hcp or shape for level of bidding. Do not be surprised when partner passes your neg x as the opp have overcalled his canape suit Yes this happens.
new suits are negative free bids.
Nt bids are natural.
rebid of clubs by opener says clubs is the longer suit.

[mike777]

Now over one club openings and rebidding a major, many use the word canape but this is really not correct usage. Hamway, Meckwell and many others including Weiss simply rebid a 4 card major over partner's artificial 1d or 1h response which may only be 4 cards with a longer minor. Again a direct second bid raise by responder promises 4 card support 100% not 3. Futher bidding by opener will clarify and responder on third rebid can now support the 1h or 1s bid with only 3 card support. example:

1c=1d
1h=1nt
2c=2h(bingo 3 card heart support)

Please note in the above auction responder is still not sure whether opener is 5H-4c or 4H-5c. Yes this auction takes practice.

btw I think you can see in these last two posts how Weiss places minor priority on finding 5-3 fits. Higher priority on 4-4, 5-4 and 6-3 fits or just no trumps.

Many people hate this as well as not playing weak 2 bids.

[luke warm]

mike777, on Oct 19 2005, 01:32 PM, said:

Many people hate this as well as not playing weak 2 bids.

i've always liked the canape principle, even thinking of ways to incorporate it into 2/1... as for 2 bids not being weak, that was the hardest thing for me to overcome, philosophically... but it can be done

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Oct 19 2005, 05:46 PM, said:

Mauro:

If you are asking is "how does Opener deal with a 1=5=4=3 18 count" after 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S (1N) the answer depends on a few things:
....

Sorry, I realize my post was confused(confusing) :-)

I meant sequence where opener opens a LIMITED opening as 1M.

He might have 4M-5+m or 5M4m or more shapely 2 suiters.

The question was how does the limited 1M opener describe himself resolving the ambiguity when his pard does not relay

[Chamaco]

mike777, on Oct 19 2005, 06:26 PM, said:

IF I understand your post you are asking about 4-5 card major and 4-5 clubs in canape sequence given invite, weak or interference sequence?

......

Ty Mike ! )

BTW, where do I find notes on the Weiss club ?

[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Oct 20 2005, 06:16 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 19 2005, 05:46 PM, said:

Mauro:

If you are asking is "how does Opener deal with a 1=5=4=3 18 count" after 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S (1N) the answer depends on a few things:
....

Sorry, I realize my post was confused(confusing) :-)

I meant sequence where opener opens a LIMITED opening as 1M.

He might have 4M-5+m or 5M4m or more shapely 2 suiters.

The question was how does the limited 1M opener describe himself resolving the ambiguity when his pard does not relay

There are a thousand and 1 auctions where this could crop up. I already described the MOSCITO auction 1M - 1N which is (probably) the most important one to consider.

If there are specific sequences that you are particularly interested in (1M - 2M auctions or 2/1 sequences or whatever) please let me know

[luke warm]

Chamaco, on Oct 20 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

BTW, where do I find notes on the Weiss club ?

mauro, i'm working on putting weiss in FD, for now here's the 1D opening... mike can correct any errors:

*00{Weiss Club}=NYYYYYYStrong club, 2 suited 1 bids, 1 suited 2 bids (2C is 3 suited)
001D=NYYYYYY24811-16/17, 2-suited, always canape unless 2nd suit is clubs
001DP1H=NYYYYYY2286-9, probe for opener's 2nd suit
001DP1HP1S=NYYYYYY258=>spades and diamonds
001DP1HP1N=NYYYYYY2=>diamonds and clubs, minimum
001DP1HP2C=NYYYYYY258=>clubs and diamonds
001DP1HP2D=NYYYYYY2686+ diamonds, 4+ clubs
001DP1HP2H=NYYYYYY258=>hearts and diamonds
001DP1S=NYYYYYY1586-9, to play
001DP1N=NYYYYYY510+, any distribution without 4+ diamonds
001DP2C=NYYYYYY258Usually 6+ clubs, to play
001DP2D=NYYYYYY24810-14 points, 4+ diamonds
001DP2DP2H=NYYYYYY4585+ hearts, 4+ diamonds
001DP2DP2S=NYYYYYY4585+ spades, 4+ diamonds
001DP2DP2N=NYYYYYY45+ diamonds, 4+ clubs
001DP2DP3C=NYYYYYY4585+ clubs, 4+ diamonds
001DP2DP3D=NYYYYYY4686+ diamonds, 4+ clubs
001DP2H=NYYYYYY55810+ fit jump, 4+ diamonds
001DP2S=NYYYYYY55810+ fit jump, 4+ diamonds
001DP3C=NYYYYYY55810+ fit jump, 4+ diamonds
001DP3D=NYYYYYY948Usually 5+ diamonds
001DP3H=NYYYYYY501Mini-splinter
001DP3S=NYYYYYY501Mini-splinter

[Chamaco]

luke warm, on Oct 30 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Oct 20 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

BTW, where do I find notes on the Weiss club ?

mauro, i'm working on putting weiss in FD, for now here's the 1D opening... mike can correct any errors:

Jimmy, thx a lot !!
This FD stuff is getting every day more awesome

[luke warm]

yeah, now if i only knew what to do with it ... it's so much easier (for me anyway) to do several smaller files, then (and this is the part i'm fuzzy on) merge them into the main file... but then what? send *all* to uday? i'm sure he'd appreciate that heh...