[luke warm]

i'm building a strong club system that has shape responses to 1C... i can show all 1 suited positives, 2 suited (5/4, 6/4, 6/5) positives, 2 suited (5/5, 6/6) positives, 3 suited positives, and balanced positives... my problem is figuring out which subsequent relays are theoretically sounder and i'd appreciate some input on this section

1C : 2H=clubs and another, 8+, 5/5 or 6/6
1C : 2S=diamonds and a major, 8+, 5/5 or 6/6
1C : 2N=majors, 8+, 5/5 or 6/6

since the 2H bid uses the most space (3 other suits can be 2nd suit), i'll use it for my question
1C : 2H (clubs and another)
2S asks for other suit,

• 2NT=diamonds
  
• 3C=hearts
  
• 3D=spades

1C : 2H
2S : 3D
3H asks if 5/5 or 6/6... 3S=5/5, 3N=6/6

1C : 2H
2S : 3D
3H : 3N
now here's where i'm not sure which is more important to know... should the next relay ask for more distribution info or should it be used for strength? presently i use 4C as 6 ace RKC in the 2 shown suits:

• 4D=1 or 4
  
• 4H=0 or 3
  
• 4S=2 witn no queens
  
• 4N=2 with one queen
  
• 5C=2 with both queens

is that a better use of 4C than asking dist in other 2 suits? or is there even a better use of 4C? remember, opener is looking for slam

thanks

[Robert]

hello luke warm

Where do the 6-5 and 5-6 hands go?

The next relay should be for the exact shape and you should also have an option to use higher steps for RKC in the 'known' suits. Setting which suit is trump lets you ask for the trump queen later.

You might also want to also use 'anti relays.' When the remaining cards might be say 3M and 1m( in a 5431 shape) your 3D-3H is a relay bid and 3D-3S* would be an anti relay which says, "Do not bid above 3NT without the 1m-3M hand type." If the 3m-1M hand will eliminate slam chances, the ability to play 3NT is nice.

Zoom bidding is also very good. Partner answers a relay(with the highest answer) if his hand permits, he goes into the next question 'without' being asked. If a 3S answer showed the exact shape, higher than 3S would show RKC or whatever answer that the next relay would ask.

I first saw zoom bidding and anti relays in Ultimate Club. They are very valuable when you need to save one or more steps. Reading both Ultimate CLub and Power might be of great interest since you want to use relay methods.

Both Power and Polish Club use a 4D* bid to force 4H so that opener can sign off in any game. Direct bids of 4H and higher are 'size asking' RKC bids.

Size asking RKC surprised me at first, however, it proved to be a valuable tool.
You often get to use RKC with a 4C bid(or sometimes lower bid!) so the bidding room is normally available without any problems about bidding room.

Partner bids the first step to show a minimum. The second step upwards lets you show normal RKC steps. You tend to have more information available than normal RKC since partner sometimes shows 'extra values' plus his key cards.

If partner bids that first step to warn of minimum values, opener may bid the next step up to 'really' ask for RKC replies.

I also built a Precision type system. I use the bids up to 3NT to show exact 4441, 5440 and all possible solid suits.

If you do not might listing the lower replies to 1C? I am just curious.

Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Hello luke warm

I am a bit tired. That last sentence should read, "If you do not mind(not might)

Sorry. Me bad.

Regards,
Robert

[luke warm]

Robert, on Nov 7 2005, 10:56 PM, said:

Where do the 6-5 and 5-6 hands go?
If you do not might listing the lower replies to 1C?  I am just curious.

Regards,
Robert

all 2 suited hands with unequal length (4/5, 4/6, 6/5) are in lower responses... basic responses are:
1d=0-7 or 8-11 3 suited
1h=8+ balanced (5332 is the most unbalanced) or 12+ 3 suited
1s=clubs one suited or clubs 2 suited canape
1nt=diamonds one or canape 2 suited
2c=hearts or hearts and another, canape
2d=spades or spades and another, canape

so if you have a 6/4 hand with clubs and hearts (hearts longer)
1c : 1s
1nt : 2d (hearts)
2h : 2nt (shows 6/4)
3c asks about higher ranking short suit
-----3d=void; 3h=stiff; 3s=doubleton; 3nt=3
followed by asking bids or rkc

if you're one suited clubs
1c : 1s
1nt

• 2s=clubs, 8-11
  
• 2nt=clubs, 12+ 2 controls
  
• 3c=12+, 3 controls
  
• 3d=clubs, 12+ 4 controls
  
• 3h=clubs, 12+ 5+ controls

thanks for comments, i appreciate all critiques

[Free]

Luke,

If you want to show 6-6 hands, just immediatly show shape. So 3NT = 6601, 4♣ = 6610. Then ask keycards, no problems at all. You don't want to play 3NT when partner has a 6-6 imo.

[hrothgar]

I'm going to make the same comment that I made in another thread. Walmart is evil. EVIL EVIL EVIL.

(oops. sorry about that. better reset) I find it very difficult to evaluate a random collection of bids in isolation. There is too much information to process. I strong suggest that you start by creating one or more frameworks that describe the features that you find valuable in a bidding system. From my perspective, the two most useful frameworks to consider focus on the efficiency of the the relay system and the simplicity of the methods.

Its relatively easy to create a metric that described the expected level at which a given shape is resolved. Said metric needs to include

1. The level of shape resolution (4=5=3=1 shapes are resolved with a 3♥ bid, 5=4=3=1 shapes are resolved with a 3♠ bid). In an ideal world you'd like to be able to relate this to the safety level for each hand - 7=3=2=1 hands will probably play in a Spade contract...

2. The frequency with which each bid occurs following a strong club opening

Alternatively, you might prefer to create a metric that attempts to measure the complexity of the relay structure. How compact is the rules set that describes your relays?

[Robert]

Hello everyone

You seem to have everything under control. I was just curious about some of the details. If I see something 'good', I tend to 'add' it to my methods. You have been warned.

Walmart is not EVIL, maybe just a little bit evil?

Showing 6-6 hands with no idea of the range/controls might result in a strange contract. I realize that the same problems might result from a lower path, however, partner might be able to agree a suit and cue bidding(or RKC) could start
somewhat lower.

If size asking RKC(Power style) is used, even more information might be shown.

On the other hand, showing the exact 6-6 pattern before the other side 'can bid' would be an advantage. At least one relay method says that they never get to use their methods that show 11+ cards in two suits, the other pair always 'jumps' into those auctions.

The problem is that I currently use all of the bids from 1C-4C* to show 4441, 5440 plus 'any' solid suit. Zooming pass 3NT only with 5=4=4=0 with extra values.

Maybe I can use 4D and 4H to show 6601 and 6610 hands? That bidding should wake up the other pair and my partner!

I will generate some hands and look at the results. It might slow down my hand generating when I limit the possible hands to exact 6601 and 6610 types. I normally get 50-100 hands generated in seconds.

The good news is that the number of 6-6 major hands(and 5=4=4=0) is a somewhat low percentage of bridge hands.

hello luke warm

Minor comments, no offense intended. A matter of 'maybe' making some small improvements. It is your system so 'pick' the methods and enjoy.

When you ask about shape after 'knowing about two suits, you might want to reverse the order of the answers. Use lower bids to show more cards.

You are unlikely to want to play in a suit opposite your first step 'void' reply. If the first step showed 3 cards, it would likely be a much more encouraging reply.
Over a higher response(several steps) showing shortness, you could either change trumps or maybe sign off in 3NT.

A 3,2,1,0 or 3,2, 0-1 order of steps might gain you some bidding room. "If' you held a AKQxxxx suit that needed to check on the 0-1 step, you could make an asking bid. It is highly unlikely that you want to play opposite 0-1 cards(on most hands) so using up several steps would not normally matter.

Some relay methods use a 'do not bid above' 3NT in certain bidding paths. 'Anti relays' are sometimes used to say ' show your remainder, but 'do not' bid above 3NT 'without' a longer major fragment.

In your club one suited auctions, you might want to show 6331 and 6322 type shapes(7222/7321 etc.) shapes 'before' you show controls. Clubs may well become trump, however, opener may want to play his suit opposite a 3 card(or 2 card?) holding.

This is a very minor suggestion(I am a Type A person and worry about things that I can neither change nor control) Even your 12+HCP and 5 control 3H* bid is still fairly low.

I much prefer IMPs to matchpoints, however, 3NT is often 'the contract' to play at matchpoints.

I have added a method where opener often shows a minimum with his first step in many bidding areas and 'zooms' to show the exact shape with maxiumum(extra?) values.

You might want to use that style in the club auctions: 1C-2S*=clubs 8-11 and direct higher bids show 12+HCP plus the exact shape. You might be much better placed to ask for controls or sign off opposite a known 12+HCP and you already 'know' the exact shape.

Thanks for your posts and replys.

Regards,
Robert

[whereagles]

I'm a bit confused What do you mean "walmart is evil"? You mean the US retail sales corporation?

[luke warm]

some very good comments, exactly what i want.. thanks all...

free said:

If you want to show 6-6 hands, just immediatly show shape. So 3NT = 6601, 4♣ = 6610. Then ask keycards, no problems at all.  You don't want to play 3NT when partner has a 6-6 imo

this could work very well after the 2nt (majors) response
1c : 2nt
3c (5/5 or 6/6??)

• 3d=5/5
  
  
• 3h=6601
  
  
• 3s=6610

with opener relaying further for 6 ace rkc or just controls... i agree that in this instance 3nt by opener is better used as a relay, unlike most times when it's to play... if that's the case, there isn't any reason not to play the same after the 2h and 2s responses

richard said:

The frequency with which each bid occurs following a strong club opening

yeah, that's why on the 2 suited 5/4, 6/4, or 6/5 hands i started with the lowest bid showing 5/4, since it's more likely than 6/4 which is more likely than 6/5... sorry richard but i don't follow your #1 point, unless you're speaking of 5/4 majors.. in that case (assume longer hearts) mine at the moment is
1c : 2d (spades 1 or 2 suited)
2h : 3c (hearts)
3d asks about the higher ranking of the 2 remaining suits (diamonds here)

• 3h=4531
  
  
• 3s=4522
  
  
• 3nt=4513

followed by 6 ace rkc (if continue relay) or specific suit (CABs or TABs)

robert said:

When you ask about shape after 'knowing about two suits, you might want to reverse the order of the answers. Use lower bids to show more cards

good thought (see above example to richard)..i'm just so used to relay answers showing high shortage first that it stuck in my mind

robert said:

In your club one suited auctions, you might want to show 6331 and 6322 type shapes(7222/7321 etc.) shapes 'before' you show controls.

do you mean 'zoom' for distribution instead of controls? my thought was for opener (who is evidently contemplating slam to be going to all this trouble) can ask afterwards, but your idea might be better... i'd have to see an example... presently it's something like this

1c : 1s
1nt : 3h (clubs one suited, 12+, 5+ controls - used as example because of room it takes)
3s asking bid for spades (highest ranking)..

• 3nt=3
  
  
• 4c=2
  
  
• 4d=1
  
  
• 4h=0

robert said:

The problem is that I currently use all of the bids from 1C-4C* to show 4441, 5440 plus 'any' solid suit. Zooming pass 3NT only with 5=4=4=0 with extra values

i like my 3 suited responses because opener knows fairly early whether responder is minimum (8-11) or not (12+)... all of these assume opener relays, which isn't necessary.. i have responses for that eventuality also...
1c : 1h
1s asks

• 1nt=balanced 8+, two 4 card suits
  
• 2c=5 diamonds balanced
  
• 2d=5 hearts balanced
  
• 2h=5 spades balanced
  
• 2s=5 clubs balanced
  
• 2nt=any 4333 hand
  
• 3c=12+, 3 suited short clubs
  
• etc etc

opener's rebids to the balanced hands all find out distribution/strength prior to 3nt... many thanks to all of you, puhleeze don't hesitate to add any thoughts you might have... i can use all of 'em