[cherdano]

1♥  Pass 1NT  2♦
X    Pass 3♣  Pass
3♦  Pass 3♠   Pass
4♣

Do you have some default rules about when 4m is forcing?

Arend

[mike777]

I must admit I find this bidding very confusing.
1) x=penalty of 2d
2)3c=very weak, long clubs
3)3d=super max hand
4)3s=very very weak 6-3 hand.
5)4c=to play must pass cannot be slam try...I must have close to 3 hcp on this hand.

[helene_t]

In both IRL partnerships, my agreement is that 4m is always forcing unless it can't be. Here, the (t/o?) dbl of 2♦ already showed extras and opener could have shown even more extras by raising 3♣ to 4♣. 3♦ must be a game force, but even if it isn't, 4♣ is forcing now.

[Chamaco]

I expect opener to have a GF hand unsuited for a 2C openr, e.g. a 2 suiter like:
Kxx- AKQxx-void-AQJxx
but could be a tad weaker than this.

After double and 3D, opener has forced to game, so I view 4C as a slam try

[mike777]

ok I ask why is x of 2d takeout? IN fact on posters hand a void?

This is very typical expert bidding that really makes us newer players furious/MAD

[cherdano]

mike777, on Oct 23 2005, 09:45 AM, said:

ok I ask why is x of 2d takeout? IN fact on posters hand a void?

Because you agreed it is Sorry, I should have specified this.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Oct 23 2005, 09:45 AM, said:

ok I ask why is x of 2d takeout? IN fact on posters hand a void?

I live by the rule that double of low level contracts is only for penalties if:

1. It's obvious that the opponents have a misfit.
2. Preceded by a redouble.

As to 1) It's not.
As to 2) Irrelevant here.

So double of 2♦ is for take-out.

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Oct 23 2005, 02:56 AM, said:

mike777, on Oct 23 2005, 09:45 AM, said:

ok I ask why is x of 2d takeout? IN fact on posters hand a void?

I live by the rule that double of low level contracts is only for penalties if:

1. It's obvious that the opponents have a misfit.
2. Preceded by a redouble.

As to 1) It's not.
As to 2) Irrelevant here.

So double of 2♦ is for take-out.

Roland

If we agree that third hand unpassed will never have a misfit auction that means...third hand can bid on complete garbage? In fact we need a more complete definition of misfit here? If we agree an unpassed hand cannot be misfit, can a passed hand be "obvious misfit'? This is typical expert thinking, that 99% or more of us who have no partnerships are confused. I repeat, out of 25 Million players, 99% of us do not have detailed partners.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Oct 23 2005, 10:00 AM, said:

If we agree that third hand unpassed will never have a misfit auction that means...third hand can bid on complete garbage? In fact we need a more complete definition of misfit here? If we agree an unpassed hand cannot be misfit, can a passed hand be "obvious misfit'? This is typical expert thinking, that 99% or more of us who have no partnerships are confused. I repeat, out of 25 Million players, 99% of us do not have partners.

I don't understand what you are aiming at. The person who bid 2♦ is 4th in hand and unlimited. You may then ask what I will do if I have a penalty of 2♦. The answer is pass, and I will wait for partner to (likely) re-open with a double, since he rates to be short in diamonds. He knows that I may have a trap pass of 2♦ depending on his own length in the suit.

Now you get it both ways. You can double for take-out with 4513 and 3514 patterns and pass it if you have something like 2542 and extras where you would like to penalise the opponents.

This is no different to playing negative doubles. If you want to penalise opps after your partner opened and RHO overcalls, you must pass, because a double would be negative.

Roland

[mike777]

If I understand the logic here.
1) opener has full values
2)rho has full values
3) we expect partner to bid 1nt and then to bid x with shortness in rho suit, so we can play rho in penalty ? I give up ok......this is too much for me.
4) I expect partner to have very very weak hand with long suit and no defense.

[Walddk]

Thought we were talking about the double of 2♦ only and not the subsequent auction. Feel free to play double as penalties. I prefer to play it as take-out, and I told you why.

Roland

[mike777]

I repeat how can 4c be slam try on this hand?
If you have slam try bid 4d over 3clubs ok????????? kickback( ace ask) or bid something else come on@!!

If you experts are bidding slam on this hand ok. but as a newer player I am just MAD, we missed simple game.

[mike777]

Chamaco, on Oct 23 2005, 02:40 AM, said:

I expect opener to have a GF hand unsuited for a 2C openr, e.g. a 2 suiter like:
Kxx- AKQxx-void-AQJxx
but could be a tad weaker than this.

After double and 3D, opener has forced to game, so I view 4C as a slam try

With this hand I never double 2d, I bid 3d at least.........closer to bidding 6clubs than double.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

forcing, I dont know, what opener is really doing,
probably trying to find the "magic" slam, but it
is forcing.

Marlowe

[mikestar]

mike777, on Oct 23 2005, 08:22 AM, said:

If I understand the logic here.
1) opener has full values
2)rho has full values
3) we expect partner to bid 1nt and then to bid x with shortness in rho suit, so we can play rho in penalty ? I give up ok......this is too much for me.
4) I expect partner to have very very weak hand with long suit and no defense.

No, partner won't always double with a stiff--maybe he is too weak and won't want to compete. But then he might not leave in a penalty double either. No one these days palys low level doubles to show a trump stack: a good player making a penalty double here will have good defense and good but not overwhelming diamond length and strength--you just can't wait for the hand that can beat 2♦ no matter what partner has.

Most experts these days play something similar to Robson-Segal's rules: all doubles are for takeout until we have found a fit. There are certain excetions to be noted.

Doubles are for penalty if:

1. we bid and raise a suit even if the fit may be seven cards.
2. we preempt.
3. either of us have redoubled.
4. either of us has made a penalty pass of a takeout double.
5. it is self evident that we are in a mistfit auction.
6. were are in a forcing pass auction

Only exceptions 5 & 6 need judgement, the rest merely require memorization--they could be taught to beginners and should be.

The reason for this evolution is that hands that need to compete but have no clear direction are much more common than penalty double type hands. True, they will sometimes escape a penalty, but they will sometimes get nailed by a penalty pass of a takeout double when they would have escaped if we we playing penalty doubles.

On the whole the number of penalties we get are similar to playing most doubles as penalty--the big gain is in the greater ease and saftey competing on the majority of hands where we weren't going to penalize them either way.

[FrancesHinden]

It's getting a bit off-topic, but your rules aren't enough. This is a very difficult subject not at all suitable for teaching for beginners early on. For example:

1H (1S) P P
2C (2S) x

is played as penalties by virtually everybody

1S P 4S P
P x

it not penalties by your rules, yet I would play it as penalties. This exact auction came up in Bridge World once, and about half the expert panellists thought it was take-out - so there's little agreement on this subject (It transpired that partner had indeed meant it as penalties).

Or how about
1C 1H 1S P
2C P 2S x
?
This is take-out by your rules, yet is another double I would play as penalties.
Or this one
1S P 2C P
2S 3D x
which was a penalty double worth 1100 when it came up?

Back to the auction in question

1H P 1NT 2D
x

In England, where 1NT is a much more limited call than in the US, well over 75% of club players would play that as 'penalties' (probably a balanced 16+ with decent trumps). Partner has defined their hand: not four spades, not four hearts or 3 with a shortage, not strong enough (9+) to bid at the 2-level. So why pass on a good hand when it is likely to end the auction?

OK, I also think it works better to have double as take-out here, I'm just trying to make the point that when partner has defined their hand it's not as obvious as many posters are saying.

In a semi-forcing NT style (or pure 2/1) when 1NT can be anything from a 4333 5-count (to show a bad raise) to a 3235 12-count via a 2155 8-count, and where opener isn't 15-17 balanced because all these people open 1NT with or without a 5-card major, there's more to be said for playing double as take-out.

[FrancesHinden]

Back to the original question, about whether 4C is forcing.
Assuming the double of 2D was take-out, I don't think it should be made on a void unless opener is prepared to defend if partner passes with four trumps.

So:

1H (5+ hearts, not strong enough to open 2C)
Pass
1NT (not 4 spades unless also 3 hearts, not suitable for raising hearts, not strong enough for a 2/1, whatever this system requires for a 2/1)
2D (natural)
Dbl (take-out, most likely 2524/3523 with extra values)
Pass
3C (long clubs, at most two hearts)
3D (I've got a good hand, can you bid 3NT?)

Now I think 4C by responder is passable. They have already defined their hand twice - once with 1NT, then again by bidding 3C (unless 2NT would have been lebensohl, which some people play on this auction)

What made the eventual 4C forcing in my mind was responder's 3S bid. That sounds like enthusiasm, but inability to bid 3NT or 3H.

Opener's most likely hand type is a 3523 18/19 count.

My husband says the final 4C bid was not forcing, so you've acquired some sympathy. He says you are quite possibly 26 high with no diamond stop and not enough stuff for 5C.

(Lucky we've never had that auction, isn't it?)

[han]

I agree with Frances's husband for the same reason. Opener can bid 5C with enough for game, and it is very unlikely that opener has slam interest. With slam interest opener can still bid 4D. Ugly, but 4C as non-forcing seems more useful.

Very tough question. I don't mind being in the minority here, I suspect that most voters have not thought about this as much as the auction deserves.

Besides 3S showing some values, I also think that it is natural and suggests playing in a 4-3 fit. I think that opener is 3514, but could have been 4513 before the 4C bid.

[Fluffy]

your length in their suit can sometimes help you find this marginal doubles meaning.

[luke warm]

fwiw here's klinger's (yeah i do like most of his rules) rule for when a double is penalty - ENWRAPS

E-to Expose a psych: (1H) x (1S) x
N-after a No trump bid: (1D) p (1NT) x
W-after a Weak 2 or higher preempt by partner: 2S (3D) x
R-after a Redouble
A-after an Artificial bid (michaels, etc)
P-after a Previous penalty pass: 1C (1H) p (p) x (p) p (1S) x
S-Subsequent double of a pass of the same suit: 1D (1H) p (p) 1S (2H) x

so on

1♥ Pass 1NT 2♦
X Pass 3♣ Pass
3♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♣

the x would be takeout unless 2D was artificial (which i assume it isn't)... now i agree that there's room for debate on his rules, but at least he *has* rules